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    • Join Date: Mar 2007
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    #1

    I should think the model would sell quite well

    Does it mean:
    my opinion is: the model would sell quite well

    How about past tense like in this sentence
    "I should have thought you knew"
    Does it mean:

    I thought you knew or
    I did not think you knew?

    I am confused!

  1. Soup's Avatar
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    #2

    Re: I should think the model would sell quite well

    should


    aux.v., Past tense of shall.
    1. Used to express obligation or duty: You should send her a note.
    2. Used to express probability or expectation: They should arrive at noon.
    3. Used to express conditionality or contingency: If she should fall, then so would I.
    4. Used to moderate the directness or bluntness of a statement: I should think he would like to go.
    should: Definition and Much More from Answers.com

    ___________________________________

    should –auxiliary verb

    1.pt. of shall.
    2. (used to express condition): Were he to arrive, I should be pleased.
    3. must; ought (used to indicate duty, propriety, or expediency): You should not do that.
    4. would (used to make a statement less direct or blunt): I should think you would apologize.

    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/should


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    #3

    Re: I should think the model would sell quite well

    In BrE, it can also be used to emphasise smething:
    'He apologised'
    'I should think he did.'


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    #4

    Re: I should think the model would sell quite well

    Quote Originally Posted by Soup View Post
    should


    aux.v., Past tense of shall.

    Well, actually, 'should' is not the past tense of 'shall'.

    1. Used to express obligation or duty: You should send her a note.


      "You should send her a note" is the past tense of "You shall send her a note"?


      Used to express probability or expectation: They should arrive at noon.

      "They should arrive at noon" is the past tense of "the shall arrive at noon"?

    should: Definition and Much More from Answers.com

    ___________________________________

    should –auxiliary verb

    1.pt. of shall.

    What, no example. Why would that be?

    should - Definitions from Dictionary.com

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    #5

    Re: I should think the model would sell quite well

    Well, actually, 'should' is not the past tense of 'shall'.
    Please state this claim in more appropriate terms; it is a theory and one you subscribe to, but it is not a generally accepted truth and it is dependent on a narrow definition of past tense that is rejected by many.


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    #6

    Re: I should think the model would sell quite well

    Quote Originally Posted by Tdol View Post
    Please state this claim in more appropriate terms; it is a theory and one you subscribe to, but it is not a generally accepted truth and it is dependent on a narrow definition of past tense that is rejected by many.
    Could you please explain further what you mean by "a narrow definition of past tense", Tdol?

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    #7

    Re: I should think the model would sell quite well

    Quote Originally Posted by riverkid View Post
    Well, actually, 'should' is not the past tense of 'shall'.
    Please take the time to read the poster's question carefully, especially the title of the thread, Re: I should think the model would sell quite well. Your post addresses J_Caesar's choice of words; i.e., past tense, not his question, which you have competely ignored, and which is why I fail to see how your post adds anything constructive or positive to the thread.

    As for your question, "What, [the dictionary provides no] example [for the definition 1. p.t. shall]?", allow me to provide an example for you.

    As a putative auxiliary verb, should is more clearly the past tense of shall:
    • I was extremely upset that he should earn more money than my brother. Source
    There are more examples of the putative or hypothetical meaning of should here.

    ___________________
    Note that, Pinker--who, I believe, is one of your favorite grammarians of late as you like to quote his opinions, and the very reason I am adding it in here, is talking about should as denoting an auxiliary of obligation, not putative should,when he writes:
    Other pairs of modal auxiliaries--... shall/should--began life as different tenses of the same verb, but the [couple] divorced long ago and ... should [is] no longer [a] past tense [form] Cited in.
    ______________________________________
    For those interested in the history of shall/should. Here's an early start Higher English Grammar (pp 166-176).


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    #8

    Re: I should think the model would sell quite well

    Quote Originally Posted by Soup View Post
    Please take the time to read the poster's question carefully, especially the title of the thread, Re: I should think the model would sell quite well. Your post addresses J_Caesar's choice of words; i.e., past tense, not his question, which you have competely ignored, and which is why I fail to see how your post adds anything constructive or positive to the thread.
    Clearly I wasn't directly addressing J_Caesar's question, Soup. I was addressing the inaccurate information contained within the sources you quoted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Soup View Post
    As for your question, "What, [the dictionary provides no] example [for the definition 1. p.t. shall]?", allow me to provide an example for you.
    As a putative auxiliary verb, should is more clearly the past tense of shall:
    [*]I was extremely upset that he should earn more money than my brother. Source

    My Lord, the old Prof Darling site. These people were warned of some of their errors more than five years ago. They acknowledged the same but have made no amends. Why? They're seriously confused about a number of aspects of language.

    Nothing seems to have changed for this example that you've cited, Soup.

    You haven't provided an example, Soup. That you weren't able to should tell you a lot. I'm not sure why it doesn't.


    As a putative auxiliary verb, should is more clearly the past tense of shall:
    [*]I was extremely upset that he should earn more money than my brother.

    This is NOT an example of 'should' being used as a past tense. It does not describe a past event, it does not describe a finished event, which is what a past tense does. Let's try to make 'should' act as a real past tense.

    I was extremely upset that he should earn more money than my brother. *Last year he should earn $25,000 more than my brother.*

    [* denotes ungrammatical sentence]

    Here's another example of the terrible analysis on modals done by the site that you have cited.




    Uses of May and Might

    Two of the more troublesome modal auxiliaries are may and might. When used in the context of granting or seeking permission, might is the past tense of may. Might is considerably more tentative than may.

    * May I leave class early?
    * If I've finished all my work and I'm really quiet, might I leave early?

    Helping and Modal Auxiliary Verbs
    They state that "[W]hen used in the context of granting or seeking permission, might is the past tense of may" and then they provide an example where it clearly is NOT.
    Last edited by riverkid; 18-Jul-2008 at 23:27.

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    #9

    Re: I should think the model would sell quite well

    As a learner I accepted that modals are group of auxiliary verbs which never change their form.

    Should is always should.
    might is always might.
    must is always must.
    shall is always shall. etc..

    1) I shall come. and
    2) I should come
    2a)I should have come

    1) and 2) have pretty different meaning.
    Looking at the 1) and 2) how to simply say should is simple past of shall?

    But many times other verbs or the rest of the words in the sentence say about the aspect.

    I asked him to move that big stone. But he couldn't do it.
    Could he move the stone if I ask him to do it.

    He might have gone out.
    He might go out off the city tomorrow.

    I saw in many books that
    could is simple past of can and should is simple past of shall but I think that the modals shouldn't be there in the list of the irregular verbs because they are much more irregular than any other irregular verb.

    Modals are only modals and nothing else.
    There, in the books, should be one more list with modals and phrasal modals and the explanation about use of these words.

    It might be said that could is simple past of can but in very specific (limited) situations only.
    I can move the stone.
    I couldn't move the stone when I was young.

    But,
    3) Will you move on!
    4) Would you please move on a bit! This sentence isn't about the past by any means.
    These two sentences (3,4) describe modals and their use pretty much, I think.


    In addition, one more use of should

    If this post should look like awful please do not hesitate to let me know about.

    So should could be used to indicate (a low) possibility, in other words an action or event which is not very likely to happen.

    Finally, there are group of pretty similar auxiliaries which we call phrasal modals which form could be changed in order to point to the past. (to change the aspect)

    example

    present~~~~~~~~~~past
    have to~~~~~~~~~~had to

    more

    She is having to pay for the ice-cream.
    She had to be paying for the apartment every week.

    etc..
    Last edited by e2e4; 19-Jul-2008 at 00:15.


    • Join Date: Aug 2006
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    #10

    Re: I should think the model would sell quite well

    Quote Originally Posted by J_Caesar View Post
    Does it mean:
    my opinion is: the model would sell quite well

    Yes,

    1. "I should think the model would sell quite well"

    is an opinion statement, J. But so is,

    2. "I think the model would sell quite well"

    By using 'should', as in 1, the speaker has weakened the stronger statement of 2.

    Stronger ----------------------------------------------------Weaker
    I think ... -----------------------I would think ... ---------I should think ...



    How about past tense like in this sentence
    "I should have thought you knew"

    It means

    A) "I thought that you probably knew".


    Does it mean:

    I thought you knew

    No, this is a stronger version of A). It says,

    "I was of the understanding that you knew"


    I did not think you knew?

    No, it doesn't mean this. This says,

    "I was of the understanding that you didn't know.


    I am confused!
    You obviously weren't the only one, J.

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