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    #1

    while, so, although

    Dear teachers,

    I have five questions to ask:

    No.1
    The compnay refused to provide nursery facilities although over 60% of the employees were working mothers.

    In this sentence I can't replace "although" with "while" because although the latter also means "although" it is used to show contrast. Is that right?

    No.2
    Wives hsoulder the prime responsibility for running the home, so that the loss of the wife is a greater disaster than the loss of the husband.
    My question is: Can I replace "so that" with "so"?

    No.3
    I used to love Professor Lee's lectures, even though I could only understand half of what he said.
    My question is: Can I replace "even though" with "although"?

    No.4
    I told him that he would know more about the city when he ________ there longer.
    a. lived b. had lived
    The key is "b". Could you please explain why "a" isn't correct?

    No.5
    I'll see to getting the instructions printed.
    I have consulted the dictionary and found collocation "to see to something". So my question is: Is there such collocation "to see to doing something"?


    Looking forward to hearing from you.
    Thank you in advance.

    Jiang
    Last edited by jiang; 15-Oct-2008 at 15:38.

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    #2

    Re: while, so, although

    It's easier to put each question into one thread. However ...

    1. You are correct. "While" would suggest that when the percentage changes, we can reconsider the decision.

    2. Yes, you may drop the "that." You can usually drop "that" from most sentences; it's often there for emphasis, to clarify meaning, to make it easier to read without having to go back and look at the sentence. It often has no specific effect on the meaning.

    3. Yes, but "even though" is more emphatic.

    4. "Had lived" suggests he has to yet live there more time, to continue to live there. Simply "lived" there means that he hasn't earned the right to speak, yet, and possibly never will, because there is nothing in that sentence that suggests he is still iving there. He may have lived there a few years ago. Not long enough to have an opinoin.

    5. "I'll see to it" means I'll take it upon myself to ensure/see that it is done.

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    #3

    Re: while, so, although

    Dear jlinger,

    Thank you very much for your explanation. Maybe your language is too academic for me to understand.

    I still don't understand No.1 and No.4. As to No.5 did you mean "to see to doing something" is correct?

    Looking forward to hearing from you.
    Thank you in advance.

    Jiang


    Quote Originally Posted by jlinger View Post
    It's easier to put each question into one thread. However ...

    1. You are correct. "While" would suggest that when the percentage changes, we can reconsider the decision.

    2. Yes, you may drop the "that." You can usually drop "that" from most sentences; it's often there for emphasis, to clarify meaning, to make it easier to read without having to go back and look at the sentence. It often has no specific effect on the meaning.

    3. Yes, but "even though" is more emphatic.

    4. "Had lived" suggests he has to yet live there more time, to continue to live there. Simply "lived" there means that he hasn't earned the right to speak, yet, and possibly never will, because there is nothing in that sentence that suggests he is still iving there. He may have lived there a few years ago. Not long enough to have an opinoin.

    5. "I'll see to it" means I'll take it upon myself to ensure/see that it is done.

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    #4

    Re: while, so, although

    No 1. Yes, you are correct. While would not work in this context. The sentence would still be correctly constructed, but the meaning would change.

    No 4. "I told him that he would know more about the city when he lived there longer" means that he will have to return to the city to live there longer in order to learn more.
    "I told him that he would know more about the city when he had lived there longer" means that, as he lives there now, he will learn more the longer he continues that residency.

    No. 5. The verb form "to see to" means to take responsibilty. You may say "I will see to painting the fence." You may also say, "I will see to the finances." OR simply, "I will see to it."

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    #5

    Re: while, so, although

    Dear Jlinger,

    Thank you very much for your explanation. Now I understand better.
    No.1
    "...... but the meaning would change". Could you please kindly explain what it means if "while" is used?

    No.2
    I'd like to ask more on this question.
    "Yes, you may drop the "that." You can usually drop "that" from most sentences; it's often there for emphasis, to clarify meaning, to make it easier to read without having to go back and look at the sentence. It often has no specific effect on the meaning. '
    May I say "so that" can always replaced by "so"? Is it in formal style or in informal style?

    No.4
    Could you please explain in this context how can I know whether the person lives there or lives in another city? According to your explanation (if I took it in ) I can make the correct choice before I decide this. Is that right?

    Looking forward to hearing from you.
    Thank you in advance.

    Jiang
    Quote Originally Posted by jlinger View Post
    No 1. Yes, you are correct. While would not work in this context. The sentence would still be correctly constructed, but the meaning would change.

    No 4. "I told him that he would know more about the city when he lived there longer" means that he will have to return to the city to live there longer in order to learn more.
    "I told him that he would know more about the city when he had lived there longer" means that, as he lives there now, he will learn more the longer he continues that residency.

    No. 5. The verb form "to see to" means to take responsibilty. You may say "I will see to painting the fence." You may also say, "I will see to the finances." OR simply, "I will see to it."
    Last edited by jiang; 16-Oct-2008 at 09:52.

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    #6

    Re: while, so, although

    No.1
    "The company refused to provide nursery facilities although over 60% of the employees were working mothers." This says that over 60% are mothers, but that won't sway the company's decision. You may replace it with "even though" or "despite the fact that" over 60% are mothers. The company is blind to that fact, and the need for facilities.

    "The company refused to provide nursery facilities whileover 60% of the employees were working mothers." This doesn't make sense, but it does have a meaning. It means that the reason the company won't provide facilities is because there are over 60%. You may change it to "because" or more accurately to "during the time that" over 60% are mothers. It suggests perhaps that the company can't afford to provide it, because the demand would be so high. Maybe if the percentage dropped to 20% the company could provided the facilities.

    No.2
    "May I say "so that" can always replaced by "so"? Is it in formal style or in informal style?"
    I've learned to never say always. I said "usually." Formal or informal, the point of your writing (and speaking) is to communicate, to be understood. You do what is necessary, so that means you cannot always drop it. In fact, you cannot drop the that from the sentence I just wrote, because the "that" refers back to "doing what is necessary" - it's not an idle filler word.

    No.4
    "Could you please explain in this context how can I know whether the person lives there or lives in another city? According to your explanation (if I took it in ) I can make the correct choice before I decide this. Is that right?"
    In the example given, "I told him that he would know more about the city when he lived there longer," you cannot be absolutely sure he does not currently live there. You would need more context, or more words. It is ambiguous.

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    #7

    Re: while, so, although

    Dear jlinger,

    Thank you so much for your explanation. I now understand more. To make sure I understand you please confirm the following:

    No.1
    "'so that " usually can be written as "so". And in my sentence "Wives shoulder the prime responsibility for running the home, so that the loss of the wife is a greater disaster than the loss of the husband" I can omit "that". But in other sentences it may not be omitted. It depends on the context. However, this context is difficult to decide.

    No.2
    In the example given, "I told him that he would know more about the city when he lived there longer," you cannot be absolutely sure he does not currently live there. You would need more context, or more words. It is ambiguous.
    Actually this is a multiple choice question. To make it easier for you teachers to reply I typed the choice into the sentence. The following is the original question:

    I told him that he would know more about the city when he _______there longer.
    a. lived b. had lived

    According to your explanation it seems it is hard to make the choice. Is that right?

    Looking forward to hearing from you.
    Thank you in advance.

    Jiang






    Quote Originally Posted by jlinger View Post
    No.1
    "The company refused to provide nursery facilities although over 60% of the employees were working mothers." This says that over 60% are mothers, but that won't sway the company's decision. You may replace it with "even though" or "despite the fact that" over 60% are mothers. The company is blind to that fact, and the need for facilities.

    "The company refused to provide nursery facilities whileover 60% of the employees were working mothers." This doesn't make sense, but it does have a meaning. It means that the reason the company won't provide facilities is because there are over 60%. You may change it to "because" or more accurately to "during the time that" over 60% are mothers. It suggests perhaps that the company can't afford to provide it, because the demand would be so high. Maybe if the percentage dropped to 20% the company could provided the facilities.

    No.2
    "May I say "so that" can always replaced by "so"? Is it in formal style or in informal style?"
    I've learned to never say always. I said "usually." Formal or informal, the point of your writing (and speaking) is to communicate, to be understood. You do what is necessary, so that means you cannot always drop it. In fact, you cannot drop the that from the sentence I just wrote, because the "that" refers back to "doing what is necessary" - it's not an idle filler word.

    No.4
    "Could you please explain in this context how can I know whether the person lives there or lives in another city? According to your explanation (if I took it in ) I can make the correct choice before I decide this. Is that right?"
    In the example given, "I told him that he would know more about the city when he lived there longer," you cannot be absolutely sure he does not currently live there. You would need more context, or more words. It is ambiguous.

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    #8

    Re: while, so, although

    1. You may NOT omit the "that" when it is used as a pronoun, referring to something else, something real. The "that" usually looks backward to the phrase immediately preceding it. "I wanted ice cream, so that is what I asked for." Here, you cannot omit the "that" because it tells us that it was ice cream that I wanted.

    The use of "that" as a pronoun also means a verb will follow, usually a To Be verb (is/was/will be). Notice the "that is" in the ice cream example.

    If you don't see a closely following verb, and you don't think the "that" actually refers to some other idea/place/thing, then you may omit it.

    "I cleaned my glasses so [that] I could see clearly."
    The "that," if it were a pronoun, would have to refer to the glasses. It does not.
    It fails the pronoun test both times.
    The "that," if it were a pronoun, would need a "is/was" verb closely following. The only verb construction following "that" is "could see" and it isn't "that" that could see, but "I" who could see.

    In the sentence I just used, do you see the underlined "that" in there? Can you identify why it is a pronoun?

    What about the sentence earlier, "Here, you cannot omit the "that" because it tells us that it was ice cream that I wanted. " The two underlined "that" uses: one is a pronoun (and cannot be deleted) and the other is a filler word and can be omitted. Can you tell me which is which? And why?

    And that is enough for one response. Come back to your living example later, please.


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    #9

    Re: while, so, although

    I told him that he would know more about the city when he ________ there longer.
    a. lived b. had lived
    The key is "b". Could you please explain why "a" isn't correct?


    The Past Tense form of the verb, "He lived there" refers to a 'fact'. It refers to an event/action/situation that happened before NOW as I speak, and is over, complete, finished. The verb form itself does not convey any information about a length of time. "I brushed my teeth" is purely a fact - the verb 'brushed' does not convey any information regarding a period of time taken to do this. It is our knowledge of how long it takes to brush our teeth that gives the sentence the sense of a 'time period', but this is not conveyed by the verb itself.

    Your sentence says that 'he' needs to have more experience of the city in order to know more about the city- 'he needs to live there longer'. This implies a period of time over which this experience is to be gained. Because the Past Tense does not have this sense of an action occurring over a period of time, we need to use a past tense form of the verb that does.
    One possibility is 'when he had lived'. The sentence begins, "I told him..." which is past tense. So, the use of Past Perfect places the 'living' as having starting before the moment of 'I told him', and that it would continue past that moment.

    We could also use the Present Perfect form of the verb:
    "when he has lived...". This implies that 'he' is still living in the city as the speaker utters these words NOW, as he speaks about this past action of "I told him..".
    Let me see if I can show you this visually:

    <........|told him|<.........................>|I speak these words NOW|<..........
    <had lived...>and>....................? we don't know how long ***
    <............................has lived............................................. ........>
    (the 'has lived' is indefinite, uncertain as to when it finishes in the future)
    *** because this is reported speech, the use of the Past Perfect tense form disguises whether, at the time of telling him, he had actually said, 'when you have lived.." and in reported speech, he changes this to a past tense form. So, as he utters this sentence, the time period of living in the city could be over, or could in fact be continuing as he speaks. If a situation reported as occurring in the past but still true/in evidence/continuing as we report this past event, it is better to clarify this by using the Present Perfect form.
    (In grammar exercises, when we are asked to render direct speech into reported speech, and so we are not the real life speaker of the words, we do not know whether it is still 'true'.)

    Compare:
    <..............................................T I M E..............|now|.............................. ....................................>
    ...................|told him|.............................
    ....................|lived|................................
    Any time period before or after or 'during' is not implied by the verbs themselves.
    Last edited by David L.; 16-Oct-2008 at 17:08.

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    #10

    Re: while, so, although

    Dear jlinger,

    Thank you very much for your explanaiton. Now I understand it.
    that is a pronoun because it is the subject of the sentence.

    Jiang
    Quote Originally Posted by jlinger View Post
    1. You may NOT omit the "that" when it is used as a pronoun, referring to something else, something real. The "that" usually looks backward to the phrase immediately preceding it. "I wanted ice cream, so that is what I asked for." Here, you cannot omit the "that" because it tells us that it was ice cream that I wanted.

    The use of "that" as a pronoun also means a verb will follow, usually a To Be verb (is/was/will be). Notice the "that is" in the ice cream example.

    If you don't see a closely following verb, and you don't think the "that" actually refers to some other idea/place/thing, then you may omit it.

    "I cleaned my glasses so [that] I could see clearly."
    The "that," if it were a pronoun, would have to refer to the glasses. It does not.
    It fails the pronoun test both times.
    The "that," if it were a pronoun, would need a "is/was" verb closely following. The only verb construction following "that" is "could see" and it isn't "that" that could see, but "I" who could see.

    In the sentence I just used, do you see the underlined "that" in there? Can you identify why it is a pronoun?

    What about the sentence earlier, "Here, you cannot omit the "that" because it tells us that it was ice cream that I wanted. " The two underlined "that" uses: one is a pronoun (and cannot be deleted) and the other is a filler word and can be omitted. Can you tell me which is which? And why?

    And that is enough for one response. Come back to your living example later, please.

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