Its vs Their

[*Rahul*]

Hi guys

I am having a problem regarding some pronuns like 'ITS vs THEIR' in sentences like

1.The jury made its decision.
2.The jury were divided in their opnion.

Now here i am unable to decide what should be used .....

and secondly i have got some ambiguities regarding 'THEM VS THEY'

We scored as many goals as THEY/THEM
None so blind as THEY/THEM that will not see.

If u can elaborate on my question it would be very helpful

 

[David L.]

1.The jury made its decision.
The speaker is seeing the jury as a single entity, because a jury gives a collective opinion, a single finding as to guilt or innocence.

2.The jury were divided in their opinion.
Here, the jury is being referred to as being made up of individuals, the twelve people who comprised the jury, since the opinion of these individuals was divided, and they could not, as a single entity, enter a finding one way or the other (if all members had to be in agreement, as opposed to a majority decision (10 or 11).

The most common form of the expression is, "There are none so blind as those that will not see." While some may think this comes from the Bible, it is a rephrasing of the essence of something found there, so we don't have an authoritative reference, such as the King James' Bible.
Colloquially, you will hear people say something like, "We're as good as them!" when grammatically, it should be 'they": "We're as good as they are."
So - best advice: if speaking just to friends, use the short version and say 'them'.
In a formal situation, use the long version and use the nominative form of the pronoun - after all, saying "We're as good as them are" is worst of all!

 

[Charlie Bernstein]

I'll just add a note that in American English, we tend to refer to groups as it, while the British are more likely to call a group they.

So here in the U.S., the army is, while in Britain, the army are.

You're probably studying British English, so do what David says.

 

[Charlie Bernstein]

We scored as many goals as THEY/THEM

In the U.S., we have two ideals that often conflict. On the one hand, many* of us like using good grammar, for all the reasons you can imagine.

On the other hand, most of us do not want to sound snooty, high-brow, superior, pedantic, academic, elitist. Even though it might not be true, we enjoy believing we're a populist nation.

These two virtues run into grave conflict in sentences like yours above. They is grammatical but sounds snooty. Them is wrong but sounds more down-to earth.

So, many educated Americans will rephrase it by adding did: "We scored as many goals as they did." It's grammatical, but it doesn't sound snooty.

We go into similar contortions over the word whom. We hate that word!


*David might feel that my use of this word is somewhat extravagant.

 

[David L.]

I remember an English teacher saying, with reference to the tricky problems that occur when speaking the English language, that there's always a way to get round them by rephrasing.

So, many educated Americans will rephrase it by adding did:

Good ol' American know-how!

 

[Clark]

We go into similar contortions over the word whom. We hate that word!

I wonder how you can do without it, say, in a sentence like:

There were dozens of fans in the street, most of whom had iron rods.

 

[Charlie Bernstein]

I wonder how you can do without it, say, in a sentence like:

There were dozens of fans in the street. Most of them had iron rods.

Come on, give me a tough one!

 

[Clark]

Come on, give me a tough one!

You wouldn't dare correct Hemingway, would you?

'For Whom the Bell Tolls'

:lol:

 

[David L.]

And in this corner we have Ernest H, user and defender of the King's English, and in the opposing corner, a New Wave American (and probably a Republican), Charlie B.
Hopefully*, folks, this will get ugly. The crowd favourite, Ernie, opens with a sure use of 'whom' which Charlie B. parries with a quick duck and a ...yes... it's a period...and a rephrasing.
No real fireworks yet, folks.


I've done enough postings on 'regretfully' versus 'regretably', 'hopefully' versus "I hope" to know what I"m doing. Give me some slack.

 

[Charlie Bernstein]

You wouldn't dare correct Hemingway, would you?

'For Whom the Bell Tolls'

:lol:

I don't mind correcting Ernest Hemingway. It's John Donne I'm worried about....

 

[Charlie Bernstein]

And in this corner we have Ernest H, user and defender of the King's English, and in the opposing corner, a New Wave American (and probably a Republican), Charlie B.

A Repugnican?! Speaking of the king (whichever one English belongs to), I think we've both had more than our share crazy Georges minding the store.

 

[Clark]

I don't mind correcting Ernest Hemingway. It's John Donne I'm worried about....

Why would John Donne be against your correcting Hemingway? I'm sure the name would have meant nothing to him. However I'm not sure Hem would have appreciated that.

 

[David L.]

Oh ..ohhhhhh...the fights over? I was hoping to report on when the fight seemed to be decided, and you reached deep down.. and you pulled out a dangling participle.

 

[Clark]

Let's do it this way:

I don't mind correcting Ernest Hemingway.

But perhaps he would.

 

[*Rahul*]

thank you guys

 

[*Rahul*]

what about this one...

The committee decided the matter without leaving their seats.

i dont think they convey the idea of seperate individuals

 

[Clark]

what about this one...

The committee decided the matter without leaving their seats.

i dont think they convey the idea of seperate individuals

You mean 'committee'? It sure does. Look at the possessive pronoun 'their'.

 

[*Rahul*]

can u please elaborate

i didnt get it

 

[Clark]

can u please elaborate

i didnt get it

If 'committee' were used as a unified body, it would be referred to as 'it' ('its' for the possessive pronoun).
The committee has been elected yesterday. It consists of 15 members. Its place of meeting is on the 2nd floor.

In your sentence you have 'their', that's why 'committee' is understood as a collection of individuals. All the committee have cast their votes.

 

[*Rahul*]

In your sentence you have 'their', that's why 'committee' is understood as a collection of individuals. All the committee have cast their votes.

your trying to say because its written THIER , committee is plural (posssesive pronoun) .

but i am asking why can't we have 'ITS' there as it represents a group

Hope you got my point .

Thanks for helping..

Cheers