"Was" vs. "Were" in this context

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mcilroga

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Alright, so my friend and I are having a little friendly bet over the use of which word, "was" or "were", in the following context. The teacher is stumped as well, so I came to you. If I were to say:

"There [was / were] a large number of people at the event," which would it be? I know "people" is plural so if the sentence was, "There were a number of people at the event," that would be correct. However the "large number" throws us off, because while "number" can be both plural and singular, doesn't the fact that "large" precedes it makes it plural? (in essence, a large number is a number greater than one) Would this not make it "were"?

Any help is greatly appreciated. :)
 

mcilroga

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There seems to be some indecisiveness going on in that thread, though? Someone responded with their answer and halfway down the page someone else said it was incorrect.

I don't know which one it is. I have a feeling it's "were," but I'm not sure.
 

David L.

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I think if you read carefully, you will see that an English teacher, Teia, replied, and was congratulated for the excellance of her response by a second English teacher.
It was the person who posted the thread in the first place who then disagreed with them!
You take your pick of who is right.

A number of...
A large number of...
A small number of...
PLURAL verb

compare

The number of children born to unwed parents is falling. - singular verb.
 

Clark

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I think if you read carefully, you will see that an English teacher, Teia, replied, and was congratulated for the excellance of her response by a second English teacher.
It was the person who posted the thread in the first place who then disagreed with them!
You take your pick of who is right.

A number of...
A large number of...
A small number of...
PLURAL verb

compare

The number of children born to unwed parents is falling. - singular verb.


A similar problem occurs with a number of other nouns like that, for example, 'variety'.

A great variety of whisky (be) produced in Scotland.
A great variety of toys (be) produced in Scotland.
The variety of whisky/toys produced in Scotland (be) great.
 

mcilroga

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According to Teia,

"Hi Svartnik

A [ large ]number of ... + verb in the plural"

which means that I was indeed correct - "large" is equivalent to "many." I hope so.
 

Soup

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Alright, so my friend and I are having a little friendly bet over the use of which word, "was" or "were", in the following context. The teacher is stumped as well, so I came to you. If I were to say:

"There [was / were] a large number of people at the event,"

There are several choices:

1. the verb agrees with its noun:

There was a large number of people at the event.

2. the verb agrees with the closest noun:
A large number of people were at the event.

3. the above also means:
There were a large number of peopleat the event.
My seasoned advice: pick the one you mean. :-D:cool:
 

konungursvia

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Generally, AE treats collective nouns according to strict logic: "The team was happy about the acquisition of Beckham." A team is a singular noun, so the verb will be a singular conjugation. And in general, BE is very tolerant of usages which are "socially" logical, but not necessarily numerically logical: "The team are delighted to announce they have acquired Beckham."

However, although in general AE is spreading its influence faster than BE nowadays, the overall trend seems to be more and more acceptance of socially logical but numerically illogical constructions: "A lot of people are unhappy Beckham is leaving LA."
 

SeseinAsia

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Alright, so my friend and I are having a little friendly bet over the use of which word, "was" or "were", in the following context. The teacher is stumped as well, so I came to you. If I were to say:

"There [was / were] a large number of people at the event," which would it be? I know "people" is plural so if the sentence was, "There were a number of people at the event," that would be correct. However the "large number" throws us off, because while "number" can be both plural and singular, doesn't the fact that "large" precedes it makes it plural? (in essence, a large number is a number greater than one) Would this not make it "were"?

Any help is greatly appreciated. :)

I would have the sentence as "There was a large number of people at the event".

The reason being is that you are referencing a group, one single entity which consists of people. I think that if you rephrased the sentence a little bit, were would no longer be an option.

For example:

"There was/were a large number of people at the event"
"There was a large group of people at the event"

If you tried to say:

"There were a large group of people at the event"

I do not believe that the sentence makes sense anymore.

So, taking on the single entity theory, I would use was.
 

reshana

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I firmly believe that the verb doesn't agree with the closest noun. This whole issue is a simple matter of Subject and Verb Agreement. Identification of the Subject in this situation is key.

It is clear that the Subject is "large number of people" since the action is being carried out by them.

"Number of;
"Group of";
"Collection of"; etc.

Are all singular subjects and carry a singular verb, therefore, the choice would be "was".

"Large" precedes "number of people" so this seems to be causing some confusion but it must be understood that "large" is only acting as an adjective and not constituting or quantifying the object in such a manner that it would affect how the subject should be interpreted.

Singular subject + Singular verb .... SIMPLE
 

David L.

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reshana: I firmly believe that the verb doesn't agree with the closest noun.

I've never before thought of grammar as being a matter of faith!
But...believe what you will, please don't muddy the waters. The discussion was 'a number of' and its variations, which take a plural verb.

You have introduced 'a group of', where 'group' is a collective noun and DOES take a singular verb.

A quick google and I found this in an English tutorial from Bristol University, in England:

In this example, the subject is 'a small group of birds', which is singular (even though there are lots of birds) and needs a singular verb: was.

A small group of birds were flying across the midnight sea. (Incorrect):cross:

A small group of birds was flying across the midnight sea. (Correct)
:tick:

and this from Penn State University:
Nouns that are “collective” (automatically suggesting a group) take a singular verb when the group as a whole is meant; they take a plural verb when the group can be thought of as individual members. Commonly used collective nouns include “number,” “majority,” “series,” and “variety.” Note that when collective nouns refer to a singular group as a whole they are often preceded by the word “a”; when they suggest individual group members they are often preceded by the word “the.”

A number of people were affected by the tragedy.
The number of samples contaminated was two.

A series of western blots were performed to assay protein expression.
The series of western analyses was found to be inconclusive.


IF YOUR FAITH REMAINS UNSHAKEN, YOU HAVE A LOT OF INFIDELS OUT THERE TO CONVERT!
 
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reshana

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Alright, so my friend and I are having a little friendly bet over the use of which word, "was" or "were", in the following context. The teacher is stumped as well, so I came to you. If I were to say:

"There [was / were] a large number of people at the event," which would it be? I know "people" is plural so if the sentence was, "There were a number of people at the event," that would be correct. However the "large number" throws us off, because while "number" can be both plural and singular, doesn't the fact that "large" precedes it makes it plural? (in essence, a large number is a number greater than one) Would this not make it "were"?

Any help is greatly appreciated. :)

In response to the previous post by David L, I would say I humbly apologize but I cannot assume the blame for a reader's misinterpretations. I can, however, try to be more clear, which is what I will attempt to do.

You pointed out that I said "I firmly believe that the verb doesn't agree with the closest noun." However it is not a matter of faith... merely a response to this situation. I would like to reiterate to make myself clear, stating that I firmly believe that the rule of the verb agreeing with the closest noun does not lend itself HERE.

It would be applied in the following case:


[FONT=&quot]A [/FONT] [FONT=&quot]compound subject containing both a singular and a plural noun or pronoun joined by or or nor needs a verb that agrees with the noun (pronoun) that is nearest to the verb. [/FONT]
  • [FONT=&quot]Neither the moon nor the stars shine as brightly as the sun. (The verb shine agrees with the plural stars.)[/FONT]​
  • [FONT=&quot]Neither the stars nor the moon shines as brightly as the sun. (The verb shines is closest to the singular noun moon.)[/FONT]​
Source: Making Subjects and Verbs Agree

As for my initial response, I sought only to respond to the original post. Notice the author of the message was more concerned with the use of "number" and "large" and how they affect the subject and not with the effect the articles "the" and "a" may have.

But thank you for your response it was very insightful and I welcome your criticisms anytime.
 

albertino

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"There [was / were] a large number of people at the event."
(Not a teacher)
If we put the inverted sentence back into its proper order, it will look like this:

A large number of people was/were (there) at the event.
And according to the grammar rule for "there/here +be structure", the verb must agree with its subject. The result is:
Since the subject is "people", a plural "were" should be taken.
Apart from the above analysis, IMO, the rule of proximity also applies here.
 

albertino

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Note that when collective nouns refer to a singular group as a whole they are often preceded by the word “a”; when they suggest individual group members they are often preceded by the word “the.”

A number of people were affected by the tragedy.
The number of samples contaminated was two.

A series of western blots were performed to assay protein expression.
The series of western analyses was found to be inconclusive.

IF YOUR FAITH REMAINS UNSHAKEN, YOU HAVE A LOT OF INFIDELS OUT THERE TO CONVERT!

(Not a teacher)
Indeed, such a rule cited above also applies to "total and variety".
 
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