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Thread: who & whom

  1. Soup's Avatar
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    #41

    Re: who & whom

    Quote Originally Posted by Pedroski View Post
    Hey Soup, you better get on to Wikipedia
    Tell that to China. It's banned every other month or so. Moreover, anyone, and I mean anyone, can submit whatever to Wikipedia. Didn't you know? That's not to say the info you found in incorrect--rather, it's just not a commonly held view. Again, terminology plays a big part. Know your terms.

    As for what is and what is not a noun clause, find a source you trust.

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    #42

    Re: who & whom

    Soup, you are stopping me from reading a very good book. I keep thinking about this.


    Here are my criticisms of your point of view, please don't take them personally.
    She likes my friend.
    I think my friend is clever.
    I think he is clever. I think who is clever? He I think is clever.
    You chose 'I think who is clever?' And made of it: 'who' I think is clever
    You took an interrogative who and slid it over to become a relative pronoun who.
    I am still investigating if you can do that.
    If you say it is still where it was in principle, then I will ask you when Quantum Mechanics entered into the realm of Linguistics. An object in two places at the same time?


    You left me with an (empty space), saying that is the subject of the noun clause object of I think.
    You say who is clever cannot be a noun clause. My literature says it can.(John Seely)

    You say (empty space) is clever can be?
    You left me with:


    She likes my friend who I think (empty space) is clever.


    We have here two sentences: She likes my friend.
    I think (empty space) is clever.
    A pronoun can always be replaced by the noun it represents.
    She likes my friend my friend I think (empty space) is clever. (empty space = my friend= who)
    Having proposed an (empty space) I hope you don't want to say, no it's not there just because it suits you.
    We do not have a relative clause. 'I think (empty space) is clever' cannot be a complement of who. It is not an adjectival clause. Furthermore, there is no is between who and the clause beginning with I think.
    Cf. The book is on the table. I like the book. I like the book which is on the table.

    To join two sentences, we need a conjunction.
    Who is not a conjunction.
    If I think of anything else, I will let you know!!

  3. Soup's Avatar
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    #43

    Re: who & whom

    Hi Pedroski

    The purpose of the example I think who is clever? was to show you that who functions as the subject of the verb is, not the object of the verb think. That's all, nothing more.

    In showing you how a relative clause is formed, specifically WH-movement, first, I took the subject my friend, (1.), then I changed it into a relative pronoun (WHO), (2.), and moved it closer to the noun it modifies, notablythe noun friend, (3.), which left an empty slot in the syntax, marked by e:
    1. ... I think my friend is clever.
    2. ... I think WHO is clever <this is not a sentence, but a step towards a relative clause>
    3. ... (my friend) WHO I think e is clever
    A word's function is determined by the position is holds within a sentence. In 1. above, the noun my friend sits in a subject position; we know that it's a subject because we have sentences like, I think who is clever?, which houses a subject pronoun.


    _________________
    Re: I like the book which is on the table.

    Relative which replaces the subject of the verb is.
    _________________

    You prefaced your post saying that I shouldn't take personally anything you say. I haven't, and I won't; even though the language you use at times isn't all that kind or considerate--I though you might want to know how your words come across online.

    Please note, you should know that everything that has been said is in the literature, so please don't assume that trace and WH-movement are my ideas.


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    #44

    Re: who & whom

    Pedro,

    I am not sure if you have ever thought about the image you have been projecting around in this forum. Not too close to heart to me.
    You are stubbornly holding your ground and defending your corner against somebody who I think is in a different league from yours. You are like an obnoxious fly. No matter how we swat, you keep coming back with your tail-chasing arguments. It is getting really boring and annoying.

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    #45

    Re: who & whom

    Hey Svartnik, I never really worry about my image! If things seem to be wrong, I don't just accept them. But the Earth is flat, that's for sure.

    Anyway, I was wrong, but I had to read a lot and consult a lot.

    Take a look at this:


    Well, I have consulted far and wide. I think my confusion stems from the fact that I was looking for 'who' to be the subject of the relative clause. It is not. It is the subject of the NP 'who is clever' which in it's turn is the object of 'I think'. I think is not just 'stuck in there' as it could appear. 'Who' has then been slid across to be next to the one it loves: 'my friend'. This is apparently normal behaviour.

    Cf: (Maybe you don't understand the Dutch but the rest is clear.)
    This is from Professor Mark de Vries from the Rijks Universiteit te Groningen

    Wh-constituenten kunnen successief-cyclisch verplaatst worden (in Noam
    Chomsky's terminologie). Een mooi voorbeeld is:

    (1a) What did Mary say that John claimed that Mike thought that Bill bought?

    Hier is "what" het object van "bought", en wordt via de grenzen van de
    recursief ingebedde subordinate object clauses naar voren verplaatst met
    tussenstappen op elke clause-grens, hier aangegeven met een underscore.

    (1b) What did Mary say [ _ that John claimed [ _ that Mike thought [ _
    that Bill bought _ ]]]?

    Een relative pronoun in het Engels kan hetzelfde doen, en dan krijg je
    jouw voorbeeld.

    (2) [a friend [who I think [ _ is clever]]].

    Strangely, if you simply change the word 'friend' for 'book' in the original sentence, you end up with rubbish!
    She likes my book which I think is clever. Because which could refer to 'book' or 'She likes my book.'

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    #46

    Re: who & whom

    This book might be of interest to you, I think:
    The Comment Clause in English - Cambridge University Press

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    #47

    Re: who & whom

    Thanks, I'm reading it! Very interesting!

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