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  1. Newbie
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    #1

    relative adverb and that

    I learned "that" can be used instead of relative adverb.
    Can I change the first sentence to the second?

    1) This is the house where I live.
    2) This is the house that I live.

    My questions are;
    1) if the second sentence is grammatically correct even though native speakers usually don't say like that
    2) if it is correct, how it sounds to the native speakers, very weird or just acceptable

    Thank you.

  2. Soup's Avatar
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    #2

    Re: relative adverb and that

    Hi mynick

    1) This is the house where I live.
    2) This is the house that I live.
    3) This is the house that I live in.

  3. Newbie
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    #3

    Re: relative adverb and that

    I believe the sentence A) can be replaced to B).
    It means "that" can be used instead of "where" as a "relative adverb"

    A) This is the place where our leaders are taking us.
    B) This is the place that our leaders are taking us.

    Then why "This is the house that I live" is a wrong sentence?
    What is the grammatical difference between the two sentences.
    They have the exactly same structure.

  4. Soup's Avatar
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    #4

    Re: relative adverb and that

    Hi mynick

    A) This is the place where our leaders are taking us.
    B) This is the place that our leaders are taking us.

    C) This is the house that I live.

    Note, live in is a phrasal verb: it takes the adverb in. You can replace in with where because they are both adverbs,

    D) This is the house where I live.

    That is not an adverb, which is why C) doesn't work.

    Ex: This is the house I live in.
    Ex: This is the place where I live. <relative adverb>
    Ex: This is the place that I live. <conjunction>
    Test it: This is the place I live.

  5. engee30's Avatar
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    #5

    Question Re: relative adverb and that

    Quote Originally Posted by Soup View Post
    Hi mynick

    B) This is the place that our leaders are taking us.

    Ex: This is the place that I live. <conjunction>
    Are you sure about that? If so, what do the sentences mean in other words?

  6. Soup's Avatar
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    #6

    Re: relative adverb and that

    Quote Originally Posted by engee30 View Post
    Are you sure about that? If so, what do the sentences mean in other words?
    engee30, it's a matter of ellipsis, followed by insertion:

    Ellipsis: The is the place [where] I live.
    Insertion: This is the place that I live.

    The relative adverb is superfluous in that context: it shares the same meaning as 'the place', and so some speakers will omit it to save time and energy. Others speakers will add in the conjunction that to separate the two clauses, giving this is the place that I live. It's an example of how a conjunction can replace a relative adverb.

  7. engee30's Avatar
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    #7

    Unhappy Re: relative adverb and that

    Quote Originally Posted by Soup View Post
    engee30, it's a matter of ellipsis, followed by insertion:

    Ellipsis: The is the place [where] I live.
    Insertion: This is the place that I live.

    The relative adverb is superfluous in that context: it shares the same meaning as 'the place', and so some speakers will omit it to save time and energy. Others speakers will add in the conjunction that to separate the two clauses, giving this is the place that I live. It's an example of how a conjunction can replace a relative adverb.
    I really don't get it, Soup. Why the conjunction that in place of where?
    I know that there's a difference between reason why and reason that; also, between doubt whether and doubt that. These I can pretty easily 'digest' in my mind. But This is the place that I live? I'd rather say This is the place that I live in.

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    #8

    Re: relative adverb and that

    I would take a slightly different view from Soup.

    1. This is the house that I live in.
    2. This is the house which I live in.
    3. This is the house in which I live.

    I wouldn't myself call "that" a conjunction, in #1; it would seem to be a relative pronoun, like the "which" in #2 and #3.

    4. This is the house where I live.
    5. ???This is the house that I live.

    "Live" in this sense is intransitive. Thus we can't say "the house that I live", because "live" can't take a direct object.

    Instead, the intransitive "live" must be attached to its object via a preposition: "I live in the house", "the house that I live in".

    However, we can say "the house where I live", because "where" as a relative has the sense "in or at which [place]". Thus "in" is already implicit in the "where"; it would be incorrect to say:

    6. ???The house where I live in.

    All the best,

    MrP

    Not a professional ESL teacher.

  8. engee30's Avatar
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    #9

    Unhappy Re: relative adverb and that

    Thanks MrP for your post. The way you see the issue is the way I see it. However, after having done some research, I am strongly inclined to admit that Soup is right as well. Here are my findings:

    that (as relative pronoun) in place of the relative pronoun which in phrases like at/in which:

    This is the house in which (never in that) I grew up.
    This is the house which (or that) I grew up in.
    This is the house I grew up in.


    that (as conjunction, I guess) in place of the relative pronoun (or maybe conjunction) where in phrases like the place where (in which case, where is all-inclusive - meaning at/which (place)):

    This is the place where (or that) I grew up.
    This is where (not that) I grew up.
    This is the place I grew up.


    So, you can also say the following (with the place in place of the house):

    This is the place in which (never in that) I grew up.
    This is the place which (or that) I grew up in.
    This is the place I grew up in.


    To sum up, there are two possible versions of saying the same thing, which made me feel confused about the issue.

    This is the place (omitted that = where) I live.
    or
    This is the place (omitted that = which) I live in.

    Am I right in my thinking, or am I still getting it all wrong?

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    #10

    Re: relative adverb and that

    Hello Engee,

    Quote Originally Posted by engee30 View Post
    that (as conjunction, I guess) in place of the relative pronoun (or maybe conjunction) where in phrases like the place where (in which case, where is all-inclusive - meaning at/which (place)):

    This is the place where (or that) I grew up.
    I have some difficulty with the "that" in that sentence; it seems (to my ears) to force an "in" after "up".

    Also, I'm not sure why it should be a conjunction, in that structure: cf.

    1. This is the place that they inhabited

    where "that" seems to be a relative pronoun.

    (I'm open to persuasion though.)

    All the best,

    MrP

    Not a professional ESL teacher.

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