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    #1

    verbs

    Hidden in the forest was a group of thieves.

    Am I right to say that 'hidden' and 'was' are the verbs?

    Thanks.


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    #2

    Re: verbs

    Quote Originally Posted by Tan Elaine View Post
    Hidden in the forest was a group of thieves.

    Am I right to say that 'hidden' and 'was' are the verbs?

    Thanks.
    No, you do not get it the right way. (H)idden is a fronted adjective.

    Subject-verb agreement in the sentence means the notional value of group and the singular was are in concord.

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    #3

    Re: verbs

    Quote Originally Posted by svartnik View Post
    No, you do not get it the right way. (H)idden is a fronted adjective.

    Subject-verb agreement in the sentence means the notional value of group and the singular was are in concord.
    As Svartnik correctly points out, in this case 'hidden' is a mere participial adjective, here preposed for literary effect.

    Compare, though

    The diamond ring was quickly hidden under the pillow.

    where both 'was' and 'hidden' constitute the main verb phrase, the latter functioning as a true participle.

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    #4

    Re: verbs

    The diamond ring was hidden under the pillow.
    Hidden under the pillow was the diamond ring.

    Which hidden is what?


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    #5

    Re: verbs

    Quote Originally Posted by Pedroski View Post
    The diamond ring was hidden under the pillow.
    Hidden under the pillow was the diamond ring.

    Which hidden is what?
    They are past participles in form but their functions are different.

    In the first, it is part of the passive VP (were hidden), while in the second it is an adjective.
    Word order seems to influence the meaning of the sentences.

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    #6

    Re: verbs

    Apparently they are called participles for the very reason that they participate in the characteristics of adjectives and of verbs.

    The ring was hidden.
    The ring was big.
    Logically hidden must be an adjective just as much as big.
    Where is the difference? A True Participle is a bastard.

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    #7

    Re: verbs

    Quote Originally Posted by Pedroski View Post
    Apparently they are called participles for the very reason that they participate in the characteristics of adjectives and of verbs.

    The ring was hidden.
    The ring was big.
    Logically hidden must be an adjective just as much as big.
    Where is the difference? A True Participle is a bastard.
    'True participle' is shorthand for 'participle with purely verbal function', as in the passive sentence denoting an action. Participles have a potential adjectival 'aspect' which may or may not be realized depending on the construction.

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    #8

    Re: verbs

    What verbal function does hidden perform? It describes a state or condition. Namely not easily visible. So doing it fulfils all the requirements necessary to be called an adjective. It derives from a verb. But then so do many nouns.
    In 'The ring was [any adjective]' hidden is one of the potential candidates.

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    #9

    Re: verbs

    Quote Originally Posted by Pedroski View Post
    What verbal function does hidden perform? It describes a state or condition. Namely not easily visible. So doing it fulfils all the requirements necessary to be called an adjective. It derives from a verb. But then so do many nouns.
    In 'The ring was [any adjective]' hidden is one of the potential candidates.
    'Hidden', with respect to the sentence that I originally posted, namely

    The diamond ring was quickly hidden under the pillow.

    (note the crucial underlined adverbial, that you unfortunately omitted from your later citation!)

    , of course does not, in and of itself, constitute a verb phrase, but its function here is nevertheless entirely verbal. The verb phrase 'was hidden' denotes an action, pure and simple. There is nothing even remotely adjectival pertaining to the function of the word 'hidden' as far as it relates to this sentence. It would evidently be complete nonsense to assert that an object could be 'quickly ADJ' (*quickly big, quickly red, quickly square,....)!

    Thus, as far as this particular instance of the word is concerned, the adjectival aspect of the past participle is unrealized, as is that of a present participle when used to form a present progressive. I presume you would not, for instance, claim that 'going' in

    He is going to the fair.

    is performing some kind of adjectival function...

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    #10

    Re: verbs

    Well I like that, it's interesting. In your roundabout way you are saying, hidden is an adjective in The ring was hidden. So preposing an adverb turns an adjective into a verb of sorts.

    My first sentence started life as John hid the ring somewhere. (Well maybe it wasn't John.) Passivized it became The ring was hidden (by John somewhere.) That is a different kettle of diamonds to He is going (by bus) to the fair. If that were passive then *Bus goes he(him) to the fair. would be fine. So even I wouldn't presume going to be an adjective here! But if I ever come up with an adjective that can be modified by quickly, I'll let you know!!!

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