ask

[FW]

Are these sentences correct:
1-I asked for us to leave.
2-I asked that we leave.

3-I asked him for us to leave.
4-I asked him that we leave.


5-I asked that the desk be brought into the room.
6-I aked for the desk to be brought into the room.

7-I asked him that the desk be brought into the room.
8-I aked him for the desk to be brought into the room.

 

[Casiopea]

1-I asked for us to leave.
*not ok. 'I' and 'we' are co-referenced.
I asked for him to leave.

2-I asked that we leave.
*not ok. co-reference
I asked that we be allowed by someone to leave.

3-I asked him for us to leave.
*not ok. needs either if we could or 'for' + nominal
I asked him if we could leave.
I asked him for a book.

4-I asked him that we leave.
*not ok. needs either if... or 'for' + nominal
I asked him if we could leave.
I asked him for a book.

5-I asked that the desk be brought into the room. (ok)
ask that...

6-I asked for the desk to be brought into the room. (ok)
ask that the desk be brought into the room for me.

7-I asked him that the desk be brought into the room. (not ok)
*asked him if/whether he could....

OR

7-I asked him that the desk be brought into the room. (ok)
asked him that...by John. (Wherein 'him' and 'John' are different people)

8-I asked him for the desk to be brought into the room. (not ok)
*asked him for + nominal + by him *coreferencing problem.

OR

8- I asked him for the desk to be brought into the room. (ok)
asked him for the desk...by John (Wherein 'him' and 'John' are different
people)

 

[FW]

Thanks Casiopea.
Regarding the desk sentences, we are agreed.

Regarding the first batch, can't a child ask his father that they leave (a party for instance)?
A-I asked my dad that we (he and me and may-be my sister too) leave.
B-I asked my dad for us to leave.
If these two are acceptable, then I wonder whether:
D-"I asked that we leave."
and:
E-"I asked for us to leave."
could not be acceptable.

I think that in all these sentences one could use "asked if" too, but would the meaning be the same? Imagine a child who says to his father: "Dad, let's go, please." How can you put that into indirect speech? Would you use, "He asked his dad if they could leave." in this context?

"If" gives the impression to me that the person is asking for permission, but "that" implies to me that he is suggesting that they leave, but he is in a sort of inferior position.

I might be completely wrong of-course, in which case don't hesitate to tell me.

 

[RonBee]

Are these sentences correct:
1-I asked for us to leave.
2-I asked that we leave.

3-I asked him for us to leave.
4-I asked him that we leave.


5-I asked that the desk be brought into the room.
6-I aked for the desk to be brought into the room.

7-I asked him that the desk be brought into the room.
8-I aked him for the desk to be brought into the room.

Only 5 & 6 look good to me. One cannot ask one's self to leave. The last two are awkward at best.

A person can ask for permission to leave. For example, a child might tell his father he wants to go home. He might say, for example, "May I go home?" That would be asking for permission to leave.

 

[FW]

Thank you RonBee and Casiopea and my apologies to Casiopea for being a bit hard-headed.

 

[Casiopea]

FW:

A-I asked my dad that we (he and me and may-be my sister too) leave.
B-I asked my dad for us to leave.
If these two are acceptable, then I wonder whether:
D-"I asked that we leave."
and:
E-"I asked for us to leave."
could not be acceptable.

A- is okay, only iff,

I asked my dad this. (wherein 'this' stands for 'that we leave'. In that way, "I" and "we" are not bound reflexibly).

B- is not okay. 'for' is a problem.

D- is okay, only iff,

I asked this. (wherein 'this' stands for 'that we leave'. Again, same as A-. 'this' represents a phrase or sentence spoken.)

E- is not okay. 'for' is a problem.

FW:

Imagine a child who says to his father: "Dad, let's go, please." How can you put that into indirect speech? Would you use, "He asked his dad if they could leave." in this context?

Yes :up: Notice that 'if' also stands for 'this':

He asked his dad this: if they could leave.

FW:

"If" gives the impression to me that the person is asking for permission, but "that" implies to me that he is suggesting that they leave, but he is in a sort of inferior position.

Well, given the context ('asked'), I'd say a) both 'that...' and 'if' function as the object of "asked", b) 'that' expresses words spoken, and c) 'if...' expresses a condition. That is, 'that...' is nominal in form, whereas 'if...' is sentencial in form.

FW:

I might be completely wrong of-course, in which case don't hesitate to tell me.

"I asked my dad this: that we leave" does indeed sound rather odd for a child to utter to his dad. The reason being, I believe, is that 'asked that', which, by the way, is a polite request, is adult speech and hence not something we'd expect to hear a child utter.

 

[FW]

I really appreciate your detailed and meticulous replies.
Cheers!

 

[RonBee]

FW, how about:

• I asked my dad if we could leave.

That might solve your problem. "Dad, can we leave now?" would certainly be heard in this country (USA).

What do you think?

 

[FW]

I think that is probably the best choice. Casiopea's reply seems to imply that too.
The "if" version does not come to my mind "naturally" (although I understand it when I hear it), because I am not a native speaker.