both/ both of

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blacknomi

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Both of you are right. (Correct)
You both are right. (Correct)
You are both right. (Correct)

I feel a bit frustrated(no bother at all, I mean) when explaining why this doesn't sound natural.
"Both you are right." :?:

Is there anyone can tell? :)
 

blacknomi

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Thanks for the links. :D

I've read a lot of this and that at home, including books. They are almost perfect only if they offered explanations that why 'both+pronoun' doesn't work well.

So your analysis is the most precious! :D
 

Steven D

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blacknomi said:
X Mode said:
blacknomi,
I think it's just a word order issue we are dealing with here. Does this make sense to you? It simply appears that we don't use "both" before a subject pronoun. It can come after, but not before. I never noticed that before. Now I notice it.

:)


So did I. Thanks to my :shock: LOVELY :shock: students whose questions make my brain and yours work hard.

Glad both you and Cas notice it.

:wink:

It's so much fun.

:D :shock: 8)
 

blacknomi

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Casiopea said:
In short, "of" is required when prenominal "Both" modifies one pronoun:

EX: Both of you are correct.
EX: Both of them are correct.

All of us see :shock: eye to eye :shock: to one another on this.

Ooops, I forget your names, mm

Thank you and you. :D
 

Steven D

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blacknomi said:
Casiopea said:
In short, "of" is required when prenominal "Both" modifies one pronoun:

EX: Both of you are correct.
EX: Both of them are correct.

All of us see :shock: eye to eye :shock: to one another on this.

Ooops, I forget your names, mm

Thank you and you. :D

Casiopea said:
In short, "of" is required when prenominal "Both" modifies one pronoun:

EX: Both of you are correct.
EX: Both of them are correct.


Yes, but I think the point is that it can't be a subject pronoun that "both" modifies in this way. It has to be an object pronoun. - know what I mean?

We can't say "both of they", but we can say "both of them". This brings us back to "you". We can say "both of you", but we can't say "both of you". In the second one "you" is a subject pronoun. In the first one "you" is an object pronoun.

:shock: :idea:
 

blacknomi

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X Mode said:
Yes, but I think the point is that it can't be a subject pronoun that "both" modifies in this way. It has to be an object pronoun. - know what I mean? :shock: :idea:

Is Pope Catholic? :D
 

Steven D

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blacknomi said:
X Mode said:
blacknomi said:
X Mode said:
Yes, but I think the point is that it can't be a subject pronoun that "both" modifies in this way. It has to be an object pronoun. - know what I mean? :shock: :idea:

Is Pope Catholic? :D


Is he?

:shock: :shock: :shock:

Are we thinking the same? :shock:

I think so.

:shock:
 

blacknomi

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blacknomi said:
Compare:
Subject + are both + Noun or Adv.
My parents are both teachers. :D
You are both correct. :D


Subject + both are + Noun or Adv.
My parents both are teachers. :( (Why? :shock: )
You both are correct. :D


Would you help with this? Cas? X Mode?
I forgot which grammar book I consulted. It said the third one is not allowed. Is that use-personall-pronoun-before-both appetizer on the menu again? :wink:
 

Casiopea

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blacknomi said:
1. My parents both are teachers. :( (Why? :shock: )
2. You both are correct. :D

In 2., 'both' defines 'You' as plural (Note that, 'You' is ambiguous. It can be singular or plural in number), whereas in 1., 'both' defines 'My parents' as two people. A tad redundant, wouldn't you agree? In terms of nature, we have but two parents. :D
 

Casiopea

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X Mode said:
EX: Both of you are correct.

Yes, but I think the point is that it can't be a subject pronoun that "both" modifies in this way. It has to be an object pronoun. - know what I mean?

'you' is an object pronoun; we agree. 'Both' has a substansive function here (i.e., it stands for a nominal).

Both of you are correct. (Subject)

The entire phrase "Both of you" functions as the subject and, within the structure of that subject, 'you' functions as the object of the preposition 'of'.

'you' would not be considered the subject, even though it occurs inside the frame of the subject:

Subject: Both of you = Adjective+Prepositional phrase
Prepositional phrase: of you = Preposition + Object

X Mode said:
We can't say "both of they", but we can say "both of them". This brings us back to "you". We can say "both of you", but we can't say "both of you". In the second one "you" is a subject pronoun. In the first one "you" is an object pronoun.

:shock: :idea:

Do you mean, We can say "both of you", but we can't say "Both you..."? If so, yes, I agree, and have agreed all along. :wink:

EX: Both you and Pat are correct. (Subject)

EX: Both you are correct. (Ungrammatical)

Adjectives cannot modify pronouns, but substansives can, so let's add 'of' to make 'Both' a nominal:

EX: Both of you are correct. (Object of "of") :up:

All the best, :D
 

Steven D

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We can't say "both of they", but we can say "both of them". This brings us back to "you". We can say "both of you", but we can't say "both of you". In the second one "you" is a subject pronoun. In the first one "you" is an object pronoun.



Do you mean, We can say "both of you", but we can't say "Both you..."? If so, yes, I agree, and have agreed all along. <<

I'm just making a distinction between "you" subject pronoun and "you" object pronoun.

Yes, "you" is only part of the complete subject. It's the object of "of". Both of us definitely agree on that.

:D
 

blacknomi

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Casiopea said:
blacknomi said:
1. My parents both are teachers. :( (Why? :shock: )
2. You both are correct. :D

In 2., 'both' defines 'You' as plural (Note that, 'You' is ambiguous. It can be singular or plural in number), whereas in 1., 'both' defines 'My parents' as two people. A tad redundant, wouldn't you agree? In terms of nature, we have but two parents. :D

Okay. I'm going to go back by time machine. :(

Casiopea said:
Question to ponder
Given 1., what's the function of both in 2. and 3.?
1. Both Pete and Josh are nice. (Conjunction)
2. Pete and Josh both are nice.
3. Pete and Josh are both nice.

2. Adjective.
3. I don't know. Could be a adverb because it comes after be verb. :?:

Given from the example sentence, then compare:
4. Pete and Josh both are nice.
5. My parents both are teachers.
==> I do agree since 'both' indicates two different references, it COULD be a tad redundant, however, I would prefer to say that 'both' functions as an emphasis over the two different things(rather than unnecessary redundancy).

What about?
My children, Pete and Josh, are both nice. :D
My children, Pete and Josh, both are nice. :?:
 

Steven D

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blacknomi said:
X Mode said:
Yes, "you" is only part of the complete subject. It's the object of "of". Both of us definitely agree on that.
:D

Where am I? :shock:

You are there. I am here. Everybody is there, and everybody is here. But that's neither here nor there.

Have you heard or read that one before? "That's neither here nor there."

:?: :D
 

alexandre42

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X Mode said:
blacknomi said:
X Mode said:
Yes, "you" is only part of the complete subject. It's the object of "of". Both of us definitely agree on that.
:D

Where am I? :shock:

You are there. I am here. Everybody is there, and everybody is here. But that's neither here nor there.

Have you heard or read that one before? "That's neither here nor there."

:?: :D

Where do you read that's neither here nor there ?

I am going to sleep now .
 

Steven D

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alexandre42 said:
X Mode said:
blacknomi said:
X Mode said:
Yes, "you" is only part of the complete subject. It's the object of "of". Both of us definitely agree on that.
:D

Where am I? :shock:

You are there. I am here. Everybody is there, and everybody is here. But that's neither here nor there.

Have you heard or read that one before? "That's neither here nor there."

:?: :D

Where do you read that's neither here nor there ?

I am going to sleep now .

I've heard it, and I've said it.

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=53344&dict=CALD

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=here
 
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