# clauses

Status
Not open for further replies.

#### navi tasan

##### Key Member
Are these sentences correct:
1-John says that, who knows all about it.
2-John says that who knows all about it.

#### MikeNewYork

##### VIP Member
navi tasan said:
Are these sentences correct:
1-John says that, who knows all about it.
2-John says that who knows all about it.

I would say "no". I don't lnow what they mean.

If it is John who knows all about it, try:

John, who knows all about it, says that.

#### navi tasan

##### Key Member
Yes, it is John who knows all about it. At least that was what I wanted to say!
I thought one could sometimes postpone these clauses, like in
3-A man will come who will save us all.
4-Those will win who run fastest.

I think 3 and 4 are correct. I don't know about these:

5-"The man will win who runs fastest."

6-"The tall man won who had long hair."

7-"The tall man won, who had long hair."

8-"I took Jane to the cinema, who is tall and beautiful."

#### MikeNewYork

##### VIP Member
navi tasan said:
Yes, it is John who knows all about it. At least that was what I wanted to say!
I thought one could sometimes postpone these clauses, like in
3-A man will come who will save us all.
4-Those will win who run fastest.

I think 3 and 4 are correct. I don't know about these:

5-"The man will win who runs fastest."

6-"The tall man won who had long hair."

7-"The tall man won, who had long hair."

8-"I took Jane to the cinema, who is tall and beautiful."

Yes, one can do that in certain circumstances. The point is to make sure there is no other logical referent for the relative clause and that one doesn't leave the reader/listener hanging.

3 works OK because there is only an intransitive verb between the referent and the clause.

4 and 5 are OK, but the reader could start with thinking that "who run(s) fastest" is what will be won.

6 and 7 don't work at all for me.

8 is comical. It is worse because there is a noun "cinema" that tries to grab the clause.

#### navi tasan

##### Key Member
Thanks Mike.
I think I have more or less got it.
What do you think of these three:

9-A man will come, who will save us. (I have added a comma to 3)
10-Somebody will come, who will save us.
11-Somebody did it who had the access code.

#### MikeNewYork

##### VIP Member
navi tasan said:
Thanks Mike.
I think I have more or less got it.
What do you think of these three:

9-A man will come, who will save us. (I have added a comma to 3)
10-Somebody will come, who will save us.
11-Somebody did it who had the access code.

Those three are OK. I don't think the commas help in the first two, however. A person might read that as a trailing question.

#### navi tasan

##### Key Member
Thanks.
It is funny though, sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. I think when you are talking about something specific, it doesn't work. Even in
"The man will win who runs fastest."
which you considered to be OK, we don't know yet who the man is. It is sort of a general rule.

This is what I gather from these examples. I have tried to come up with all the possible cases.

#### MikeNewYork

##### VIP Member
navi tasan said:
Thanks.
It is funny though, sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. I think when you are talking about something specific, it doesn't work. Even in
"The man will win who runs fastest."
which you considered to be OK, we don't know yet who the man is. It is sort of a general rule.

This is what I gather from these examples. I have tried to come up with all the possible cases.

You may be onto something there. If you replace "the man" with "John", it doesn't work. Possibly' we will tolerate waiting for a defining clause/phrase, but once we have an identified entity, we won't. Hmmm. :wink:

#### navi tasan

##### Key Member
The interesting thing is that you said "no" to:
6--The tall man who won had long hair.

I think that means that this is unacceptable also:
12-The man won who ran fastest.
(I don't think it sounds right myself)

According to my theory, this one should be correct:

#### MikeNewYork

##### VIP Member
navi tasan said:
The interesting thing is that you said "no" to:
6--The tall man who won had long hair.

I think that means that this is unacceptable also:
12-The man won who ran fastest.
(I don't think it sounds right myself)

According to my theory, this one should be correct:

I could probably be reversed on 6. I just wouldn't write it that way. :wink:

#### navi tasan

##### Key Member
I made a mistake. I am sorry. I unwittingly changed 6 while rewriting it (the new sentence is indeed correct).
This is the original 6:
6-The tall man won who had long hair.
(I rewrote it: The tall man who won had long hair. Now this one is correct.)

What do you think about the original 6 and also 12 and 13?

#### MikeNewYork

##### VIP Member
navi tasan said:
I made a mistake. I am sorry. I unwittingly changed 6 while rewriting it (the new sentence is indeed correct).
This is the original 6:
6-The tall man won who had long hair.
(I rewrote it: The tall man who won had long hair. Now this one is correct.)

What do you think about the original 6 and also 12 and 13?

I still have a problem with the original 6 then.

12 and 13 aren't too bad. :wink:

#### navi tasan

##### Key Member
Thanks again.
My theory sort of works. According to my theory, 6 shouldn't be correct, and you say it isn't.
12 is a bit of a problem for my theory, but then again you see it as different to 6, which I suppose means you don't read it as a description of the man who won the race, but as a general rule. We aren't identifying the person, but saying what kind of person won.
I think the structure works with:
"people", "many", "those".

14-Those managed to get the job done who had the necessary training.
15-People have read this book who don't have the necessary knowledge to understand it.
16-Many have left who have never come back.

#### MikeNewYork

##### VIP Member
navi tasan said:
Thanks again.
My theory sort of works. According to my theory, 6 shouldn't be correct, and you say it isn't.
12 is a bit of a problem for my theory, but then again you see it as different to 6, which I suppose means you don't read it as a description of the man who won the race, but as a general rule. We aren't identifying the person, but saying what kind of person won.
I think the structure works with:
"people", "many", "those".

14-Those managed to get the job done who had the necessary training.
15-People have read this book who don't have the necessary knowledge to understand it.
16-Many have left who have never come back.

As I said, you have something there. :wink:

Status
Not open for further replies.