diagram same modifier modifying two simple subjects in a compound subect

PaulMatthews

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May I ask two more questions to you, PaulMatthews?

1) EFL teachers tend to include 'determiner' as a part of speech. Is it fair to say that most schools of grammar do not do that?

2) What part of speech is, say, the word this? Is it also seen as a pronoun, but with identical dependent and independent forms. How about articles? What part of speech is the word the?


(Apologies to the OP and anyone else following this thread for my sidetracking.)

1) Here's what Geoff Pullum says about it:

The term "determinative" for the category of words like articles, demonstratives, and quantifiers is at least as old as A Grammar of Spoken English on a Strictly Phonetic Basis by Harold E. Palmer and F. G. Blandford (1939), and they take it from the French "adjectif determinatif". And "determiner" doesn't seem ever to have been a clearly defined lexical category. Huddleston and I like the appealingly mnemonic suffixal parallels: "adjective" and "determinative" are both categories (word classes); "determiner" and "modifier" are both functions.

It is most unfortunate that Quirk et al. used the terms the other way round; but they were needlessly going against Rodney Huddleston's earlier works, such as his Cambridge University Press textbook Introduction to the Grammar of English, and we are not aware of any precedent they were following.

2) "This" is a demonstrative determinative. Its functions differ according to its use in the clause:

DEPENDENT:

[This formula] can't be right. [pre-head determiner]
She is not usually [this late]. [degree modifier]

INDEPENDENT:

This can't be true. / All this is mine. ['fused' determiner-head]

3) The articles like "the" are determinatives that generally (but not always) functions as a determiner.
 
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PaulMatthews

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That link doesn't work for me.


I don't know why. I can see it clearly, whether I'm logged in or not.

Can you see this:


My dog and cat are white.jpg
 

krishnap

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It is impossible for me to describe the process in words. But I have just remembered a website that gives hundreds of example diagrams. I think that you will find the answer among all the examples. Just google these words: german latin english.com (I do not know how to link. Sorry.)

I am so glad that you are learning Reed-Kellogg!

Thanks. That helped. And I have an answer! Here is what I think it is (hope the image comes through). Pretty sure of it!
Thank you everyone for the help
1.jpg
 

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TheParser

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That diagram looks great.

I was thinking of another way, but I shan't mention it, for I may be wrong.

Would you please let us know what your son's teacher thinks about the diagram?

(Wow! I envy your ability to post diagrams!)
 

krishnap

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That diagram looks great.

I was thinking of another way, but I shan't mention it, for I may be wrong.

Would you please let us know what your son's teacher thinks about the diagram?

(Wow! I envy your ability to post diagrams!)

The whole challenge in this Covid situation is that live sessions are limited - that is why I had to find the answer myself ... The live sessions for this topic are already over, and he did not ask the question to the teacher, but mentioned to me :-O
 

krishnap

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That diagram looks great.

I was thinking of another way, but I shan't mention it, for I may be wrong.

Would you please let us know what your son's teacher thinks about the diagram?

(Wow! I envy your ability to post diagrams!)

>I was thinking of another way, but I shan't mention it, for I may be wrong.
I modelled my diagram off this one below from the site you pointed out

Untitled.jpg
 

PaulMatthews

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Thanks. That helped. And I have an answer! Here is what I think it is (hope the image comes through). Pretty sure of it!
Thank you everyone for the help
View attachment 3666
Are you seriously saying that this is the kind of diagram that is expected of your son, or one that you think is appropriate?
 

krishnap

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Are you seriously saying that this is the kind of diagram that is expected of your son, or one that you think is appropriate?
I do not understand the question. The teacher drew similar diagram, but it had two "my" one under dog and one under cat. So, that is expected, but I was trying to find the diagram with only one "my"
 

TheParser

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I modelled my diagram off this one below from the site you pointed out

View attachment 3669

NOT A TEACHER

1. In the model diagram, the words "friends" and "relatives" and "associates" are used as OBJECTS of the preposition "to." So I can understand why the word "my" is put on a slanted line to the LEFT of those three words.

2. In your son's sentence, however, the words "dog" and "cat" are the SUBJECTS of the sentence. Therefore I think (repeat: think) that the word "my" should be on a slanted line to the RIGHT of those three words. (Excuse me for using the upper case in sentences 1 and 2, but I am having trouble trying to underline those words.)

The poet Gertrude Stein is quoted as writing that "I really do not know that anything has ever been more exciting than diagramming sentences."
 

PaulMatthews

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I do not understand the question. The teacher drew similar diagram, but it had two "my" one under dog and one under cat. So, that is expected, but I was trying to find the diagram with only one "my"

And what have you and your son learned about the structure of the sentence from your suggested diagram?
 

krishnap

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1. In the model diagram, the words "friends" and "relatives" and "associates" are used as OBJECTS of the preposition "to." So I can understand why the word "my" is put on a slanted line to the LEFT of those three words.

2. In your son's sentence, however, the words "dog" and "cat" are the SUBJECTS of the sentence. Therefore I think (repeat: think) that the word "my" should be on a slanted line to the RIGHT of those three words. (Excuse me for using the upper case in sentences 1 and 2, but I am having trouble trying to underline those words.)

The poet Gertrude Stein is quoted as writing that "I really do not know that anything has ever been more exciting than diagramming sentences."

Thanks. Makes sense. Will post if the teacher takes up a similar sentence later
 

krishnap

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And what have you and your son learned about the structure of the sentence from your suggested diagram?

1 qtr, 2nd grade. Do not know whether can call it structure, but till now: complete sentences, types of sentences, subjects, predicates, direct objects, subject complements, modifiers, nouns, adverbs, conjunctions. I think that is about it. They have been diagramming through each item
 

PaulMatthews

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1 qtr, 2nd grade. Do not know whether can call it structure, but till now: complete sentences, types of sentences, subjects, predicates, direct objects, subject complements, modifiers, nouns, adverbs, conjunctions. I think that is about it. They have been diagramming through each item

My dog and cat are white.


Fine, but how does the diagram you drew help you to understand how those things figure in your example?
 

krishnap

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My dog and cat are white.


Fine, but how does the diagram you drew help you to understand how those things figure in your example?
The diagramming follows rules.
Subject and predicate goes on horiz line
they are separated by a vertical line that cuts across the horiz line
direct objects are separated from the simple predicate by a vertical line not cutting down the horiz
...
...

IMHO, these rules reinforce the parts of speech in the students mind
secondly, I think, you can understand the part of speech of the sentence (once you know diagramming) without having to explain, like, this is a subject complement ...
 

PaulMatthews

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The diagramming follows rules.
Subject and predicate goes on horiz line
they are separated by a vertical line that cuts across the horiz line
direct objects are separated from the simple predicate by a vertical line not cutting down the horiz
...
...

IMHO, these rules reinforce the parts of speech in the students mind
secondly, I think, you can understand the part of speech of the sentence (once you know diagramming) without having to explain, like, this is a subject complement ...

But nothing is labeled so how can you tell what item belongs to what part of speech or function?

A good diagram clearly labels the categories or functions of each constituent. That is what is important.

My advice to you is to avoid the Reed-Kellogg system (virtually no one uses it) and to learn modern tree diagrams.
 
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PaulMatthews

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This is what Wikipedia says about the Reed-Kellogg system:

"The connections to modern principles for constructing parse trees are present in the Reed-Kellogg diagrams, although Reed and Kellogg understood such principles only implicitly"

This contrasts them with modern systems, implying that they are out-of-date.

The fact is that the Reed-Kellogg method of "diagramming" sentences has been intellectually obsolete for a hundred years. I can't see any reason for preferring it to the modern system.
 
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