GOING TO, ETC

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jwschang

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IMO, the following sentences 1 to 10 are in the Simple Present or Simple Past, and not the Continuous tenses or the Passive Voice. (The underlined part is a predicate adjective phrase modifying the subject of the verb BE.) What do you kind people think?

1. I am going to eat. (simple present)
2. He is going to sleep. (simple present)
3. We are going to sing. (simple present)
4. She was going to laugh. (simple past)
5. They were going to cry. (simple past)
6. I am determined to argue. (simple present)
7. He is determined to respond. (simple present)
8. We are determined to observe. (simple present)
9. She was determined to score. (simple past)
10. They were determined to yawn. (simple past)

11. I am hoping to meet you. (Present continuous? Not grammatical. Should be: I hope to meet you.)
12. I am intending to write. (Present continuous? Not grammatical. Should be: I intend to write.)

Going to = hoping to = intending to (approximate same meaning). :wink:

As a contrast:
I am typing. (present continuous)
I am told not to stop. (simple present, passive)
 

Tdol

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It is one way of looking at them, but if you transform the a bit, then it suggests that the structure underlying is not identical, unless you susbtitue a completely different word for 'going'. You can say 'my determination was to argue', but no similar sentence can be generated with the first examples. Also, the time of the future is important as for the very near future, then would they be adjectives or verbs? (Putting on my coat- I'm going to meet my father at the station. Is this an intention pure and simple?)

BTW- 'hoping' and 'intending' can be grammatically correct if circumstances demand the use of the progressive. Most verbs that don't usually take this form can under certain circumstances. IMO, there's nothing wrong with saying 'I am hoping to get the cheque in this morning's post', where the progressive adds to the expectation and urgency. ;-)
 

Casiopea

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It looks good on the surface but it has its problems.

Consider:

Predicate Adjective
I am happy
==> Happy is what I am. (OK)

I am going to eat
==> Going to eat is what I am. (Not Ok)

Verb Phrase
I am going to eat.
==> Going to eat is what I am going to do (OK).

Predicate Adjective
Determined to argue is what I am. (OK)

Going to = future plan
Hoping to = future aspiration
intending to = future intention

Predicate Adjective
I am typing.
==> Typing I am. (Not OK)

Verb Phase
I am told not to stop.
==> Not to stop is what I am told. (OK)

:D
 

Tdol

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Nice transformations, Cas. ;-)
 
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jwschang

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tdol said:
It is one way of looking at them, but if you transform the a bit, then it suggests that the structure underlying is not identical, unless you susbtitue a completely different word for 'going'. You can say 'my determination was to argue', but no similar sentence can be generated with the first examples. Also, the time of the future is important as for the very near future, then would they be adjectives or verbs? (Putting on my coat- I'm going to meet my father at the station. Is this an intention pure and simple?)

BTW- 'hoping' and 'intending' can be grammatically correct if circumstances demand the use of the progressive. Most verbs that don't usually take this form can under certain circumstances. IMO, there's nothing wrong with saying 'I am hoping to get the cheque in this morning's post', where the progressive adds to the expectation and urgency. ;-)

Thanks TDOL. Your points are noted, but I still think that there is something uncommon or unusual here. If we ask which is the MAIN verb in the following sentences:

1a He was hoping to eat. (Main verb hope)
1b. He was eating. (Main verb eat)
1c. He was going to eat. (Main verb?)
2. He ought to eat. (Main verb eat)
3. He should eat. (Main verb eat)
4. He must eat. (Main verb eat)
5. He will eat. (Main verb eat)
6. He was about to eat. (No auxiliary used, simple past of "be")

I think that (1c) is not in the nature of (1a) and (1b), but is similar to (2) thru (5). "Going" acts like the modal auxiliaries, and conveys the same genre of meaning: intention, obligation, compulsion, possibility, etc.

(A) If we take the main verb in (1c) as "go", it means the substantive action is the movement "go", which is not the case. In (1a) the substantive action is "hope"; in (1b) the substantve action is "eat", and so is the case with (1c) and (2) thru (5).

(B) The meaning of "going" here is definitely not as in "I am going home".

(C) We can't stop at "He is going......", just as we can't stop at "He ought/should/must/will......."

(D) The usage of "going" as meaning "intending" is so ubiquitous that I believe it is a case of its serving or acting as an auxiliary.

Is this worthy of serious thought and argument? :?:
 
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jwschang

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tdol said:
Also, the time of the future is important as for the very near future, then would they be adjectives or verbs? (Putting on my coat- I'm going to meet my father at the station. Is this an intention pure and simple?)

What about the differences in the following:

1. Putting on my coat, I'm going to meet my father.
2. Putting on my coat, I shall meet my father.
3. Putting on my coat, I shall go to meet my father.
4. Putting on my coat, I am proceeding to meet my father.

I think (1) and (2) are closer in meaning. The futurity conveyed in (3) is not really the message in (1). As you pointed out, the imminence of the action should be a key factor as to the tense. The "meeting" is more imminent in both (1) and (2) compared to (3). :?:
 
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jwschang

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Casiopea said:
It looks good on the surface but it has its problems.

Consider:

Predicate Adjective
I am happy
==> Happy is what I am. (OK)

I am going to eat
==> Going to eat is what I am. (Not Ok)
Agreed, that is not what "I am". I am here (predicate adverb). Except that adverb phrases are supposed to be headed only by a preposition or infinitive (I wonder why? and who laid this down!!) and not a participle!! Otherwise, I'd say its an adverb phrase modifying "am".

Verb Phrase
I am going to eat.
==> Going to eat is what I am going to do (OK).

Predicate Adjective
Determined to argue is what I am. (OK)

Going to = future plan
Hoping to = future aspiration
intending to = future intention

Predicate Adjective
I am typing.
==> Typing I am. (Not OK)
No, that's not a predicate adjective. My post said this one is the present continuous, to contrast with the usage of "going".

Verb Phase
I am told not to stop.
==> Not to stop is what I am told. (OK)
:D

Thanks for the input, Cas. Please see response in red. :)
 

Tdol

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jwschang said:
Except that adverb phrases are supposed to be headed only by a preposition or infinitive (I wonder why? and who laid this down!!) and not a participle!!

Unless I'm being stupid here, I don't get the point about adverb phrases:
I'm leaving tomorrow morning.

Isn't that an adverb phrase? ;-)
 
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jwschang

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tdol said:
BTW- 'hoping' and 'intending' can be grammatically correct if circumstances demand the use of the progressive. Most verbs that don't usually take this form can under certain circumstances. IMO, there's nothing wrong with saying 'I am hoping to get the cheque in this morning's post', where the progressive adds to the expectation and urgency. ;-)

Yes, they can definitely be used in the right context.
BTW, I raised this issue just for academic discussion. It will be quite a horror to put this point to students. They will be confused no end. On the practical side, it is definitely better to leave it be, as a continuous tense. :wink:
 

Tdol

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At elemtary level, I would teach the simple form as the one to use. Later on, we can deal with the niceties. The progressive here carries a subtle shade of meaning that is more appropriate to a more advanced learner. ;-)
 

RonBee

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jwschang said:
tdol said:
Also, the time of the future is important as for the very near future, then would they be adjectives or verbs? (Putting on my coat- I'm going to meet my father at the station. Is this an intention pure and simple?)

What about the differences in the following:

1. Putting on my coat, I'm going to meet my father.
2. Putting on my coat, I shall meet my father.
3. Putting on my coat, I shall go to meet my father.
4. Putting on my coat, I am proceeding to meet my father.

I think (1) and (2) are closer in meaning. The futurity conveyed in (3) is not really the message in (1). As you pointed out, the imminence of the action should be a key factor as to the tense. The "meeting" is more imminent in both (1) and (2) compared to (3). :?:

In my humble opinion, only the first sentence makes sense. In the first sentence, Putting on my coat is an adverbial phrase modifying the rest of the sentence. In the other sentences, it doesn't modify anything, having no genuine connection to the rest of the sentence. The first sentence could be restated as I am putting on my coat, and then I am heading out the door to meet my father. In the other sentences you are talking about two separate actions that are totally unconnected in every way.

:)
 

Tdol

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2&3 could be fine in a certain context:

Husband- I want you to stay here and cook and wait on me hand and foot.

Wife (putting on coat)- I shall go and meet my divorce lawyer.
;-)
 
J

jwschang

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tdol said:
jwschang said:
Except that adverb phrases are supposed to be headed only by a preposition or infinitive (I wonder why? and who laid this down!!) and not a participle!!

Unless I'm being stupid here, I don't get the point about adverb phrases:
I'm leaving tomorrow morning.
Isn't that an adverb phrase? ;-)

There are books (such as Basic English Review published by South Western in the U.S.) which classify adverb phrases as headed by a preposition or an infinitive. In fact, I don't agree with that as there are other constructions of adverb phrases.

In your example, "tomorrow morning" is an adverb phrase without doubt.
It is made up of the noun "morning" and its modifier "tomorrow", which is a very common construction of a phrase. (Noun + modifiers) serve as noun phrases, adjective phrases and adverb phrases.

(Noun + modifiers) as phrase:
1. Long rainy days are good for sleeping. (Noun phrase)
2.A careful person, she spends wisely. (adjective phrase, not appositive)
3. I am leaving tomorrow morning. (adverb phrase)

I am leaving in the morning. (adverb phrase headed by preposition)

Cas said that in "I am going to eat", "going to eat" is not a predicate adjective (which my first post stated) She's right, so I corrected that by saying it's a predicate adverb phrase.
 
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jwschang

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tdol said:
jwschang said:
Except that adverb phrases are supposed to be headed only by a preposition or infinitive (I wonder why? and who laid this down!!) and not a participle!!

Unless I'm being stupid here, I don't get the point about adverb phrases:
I'm leaving tomorrow morning.
Isn't that an adverb phrase? ;-)

There are books (such as Basic English Review published by South Western in the U.S.) which classify adverb phrases as headed by a preposition or an infinitive. In fact, I don't agree with that as there are other constructions of adverb phrases.

In your example, "tomorrow morning" is an adverb phrase without doubt.
It is made up of the noun "morning" and its modifier "tomorrow", which is a very common construction of a phrase. (Noun + modifiers) serve as noun phrases, adjective phrases and adverb phrases.

(Noun + modifiers) as phrase:
1. Long rainy days are good for sleeping. (Noun phrase)
2.A careful person, she spends wisely. (adjective phrase, not appositive)
3. I am leaving tomorrow morning. (adverb phrase)

I am leaving in the morning. (adverb phrase headed by preposition)

Cas said that in "I am going to eat", "going to eat" is not a predicate adjective (which my first post stated) She's right, so I corrected that by saying it's a predicate adverb phrase.
 
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jwschang

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RonBee said:
jwschang said:
tdol said:
Also, the time of the future is important as for the very near future, then would they be adjectives or verbs? (Putting on my coat- I'm going to meet my father at the station. Is this an intention pure and simple?)

What about the differences in the following:

1. Putting on my coat, I'm going to meet my father.
2. Putting on my coat, I shall meet my father.
3. Putting on my coat, I shall go to meet my father.
4. Putting on my coat, I am proceeding to meet my father.

I think (1) and (2) are closer in meaning. The futurity conveyed in (3) is not really the message in (1). As you pointed out, the imminence of the action should be a key factor as to the tense. The "meeting" is more imminent in both (1) and (2) compared to (3). :?:

In my humble opinion, only the first sentence makes sense. In the first sentence, Putting on my coat is an adverbial phrase modifying the rest of the sentence. In the other sentences, it doesn't modify anything, having no genuine connection to the rest of the sentence. The first sentence could be restated as I am putting on my coat, and then I am heading out the door to meet my father. In the other sentences you are talking about two separate actions that are totally unconnected in every way.
:)

Hi Ron, thanks for the message about verses. Didn't reply as I was off this site most of the time. Trying to complete my book by yearend. In the midst of that, the usage of "going to" struck me as something not quite belonging as a continuous tense.

I would say that in all the above examples, the phrase is an adjective phrase modifying the pronoun "I". As in: Walking up the street, he saw a pretty girl. The phrase modifies "he". You are right that except for the first sentence, the phrase in the other examples doesn't quite fit.

On my original subject of "going to", what about this:
1. I am meeting him. (present continuous)
2. I am going to meet him. (simple present or present continuous?)
3. I shall be meeting him. (future continuous)
4. I shall be going to meet him. (future continuous)

It looks to me that "going" is not the same between (2) and (4). In (2), it is not the main verb, just expressing futurity or intention. In (4), it is the main verb, or otherwise we should use (3) to say the same thing. In (4), it actually means "going" as an action, like he's not coming so Im going (to meet him).

"Going" acting as an auxiliary seems applicable only in the simple present and simple past: I am going to eat; I was going to eat. "I shall be going to eat" is totally redundant because of "I shall be eating", UNLESS "going" means the action of movement, and as such (4) is the future continuous. :wink:
 
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jwschang

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tdol said:
At elemtary level, I would teach the simple form as the one to use. Later on, we can deal with the niceties. The progressive here carries a subtle shade of meaning that is more appropriate to a more advanced learner. ;-)

By "simple form", do you mean "going" as expressing the continuous tense? I would stick to this myself, for teaching anyone. My thoughts that it could be treated as an auxiliary are just thoughts, for discussion. It is an impossibility to try to even introduce this idea, in practical terms. :wink:
 

Tdol

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I was referring to forms like 'hoping'. ;-)
 

RonBee

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jwschang said:
RonBee said:
jwschang said:
tdol said:
Also, the time of the future is important as for the very near future, then would they be adjectives or verbs? (Putting on my coat- I'm going to meet my father at the station. Is this an intention pure and simple?)

What about the differences in the following:

1. Putting on my coat, I'm going to meet my father.
2. Putting on my coat, I shall meet my father.
3. Putting on my coat, I shall go to meet my father.
4. Putting on my coat, I am proceeding to meet my father.

I think (1) and (2) are closer in meaning. The futurity conveyed in (3) is not really the message in (1). As you pointed out, the imminence of the action should be a key factor as to the tense. The "meeting" is more imminent in both (1) and (2) compared to (3). :?:

In my humble opinion, only the first sentence makes sense. In the first sentence, Putting on my coat is an adverbial phrase modifying the rest of the sentence. In the other sentences, it doesn't modify anything, having no genuine connection to the rest of the sentence. The first sentence could be restated as I am putting on my coat, and then I am heading out the door to meet my father. In the other sentences you are talking about two separate actions that are totally unconnected in every way.
:)

Hi Ron, thanks for the message about verses. Didn't reply as I was off this site most of the time. Trying to complete my book by yearend. In the midst of that, the usage of "going to" struck me as something not quite belonging as a continuous tense.

I would say that in all the above examples, the phrase is an adjective phrase modifying the pronoun "I". As in: Walking up the street, he saw a pretty girl. The phrase modifies "he". You are right that except for the first sentence, the phrase in the other examples doesn't quite fit.

On my original subject of "going to", what about this:
1. I am meeting him. (present continuous)
2. I am going to meet him. (simple present or present continuous?)
3. I shall be meeting him. (future continuous)
4. I shall be going to meet him. (future continuous)

It looks to me that "going" is not the same between (2) and (4). In (2), it is not the main verb, just expressing futurity or intention. In (4), it is the main verb, or otherwise we should use (3) to say the same thing. In (4), it actually means "going" as an action, like he's not coming so Im going (to meet him).

"Going" acting as an auxiliary seems applicable only in the simple present and simple past: I am going to eat; I was going to eat. "I shall be going to eat" is totally redundant because of "I shall be eating", UNLESS "going" means the action of movement, and as such (4) is the future continuous. :wink:

I agree with your analysis. I do think that the first sentence ("I am meeting him") has a sense of incompleteness. More likely is something like, "I am meeting him today." (You can say I am running now or I am walking now, but you can't say I am meeting now.)

:)
 
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jwschang

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RonBee said:
I agree with your analysis. I do think that the first sentence ("I am meeting him") has a sense of incompleteness. More likely is something like, "I am meeting him today." (You can say I am running now or I am walking now, but you can't say I am meeting now.)
:)

Thanks everybody for your input. In case anyone missed a point, I am talking specifically only about whether "going" (when its means intention or futurity) should not be deemed as constituting the continuous tense. I'm not suggesting that other participles, such as "typing", "meeting", etc should also be deemed as such. "Going to" is the unique case that I wanted to raise. :wink:
 

Tdol

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It is an interesting question and you sparked up quite a debate. I tend towards the progressive form view, though. ;-)
 
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