have II

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navi tasan

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Is this sentence correct:

1-I'd hate to have our rivals win the match.

I don't mean to say that I'll ask them to win or cause them to win. I mean to say that their winning will be something that I will undergo, something that'll happen to me. Like:
2-I'd hate to see them win.
 

Casiopea

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navi tasan said:
Is this sentence correct:

1-I'd hate to have our rivals win the match.

I don't mean to say that I'll ask them to win or cause them to win. I mean to say that their winning will be something that I will undergo, something that'll happen to me. Like:
2-I'd hate to see them win.

I would hate to see also means I would not want to see and I would not be happy if they won. :(
 

navi tasan

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Thanks Casiopea.
"I would hate to see also means I would not want to see and I would not be happy if they won."

But can't:
1-I'd hate to have our rivals win the match.
mean the same thing? "Have" not having a "causative" meaning (I learnt to use that word in this context from your other reply) here?
 

RonBee

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Certainly, you can have somebody do something, but that usage of have would not make sense in that context. Only Cas's definition makes sense to me.

:)
 

navi tasan

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Thanks RonBee.
Long time, no see.

I thought "have +infinitive without to" could be used in two ways:
a-ask, tell, order somebody to do something
b-undergo something like "have something happen to one"
I was trying to see if I could use it in this sense in that sentence.
 

Tdol

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I think it means a bit of both- you'd see it happen and undergo it, wouldn't you?
 

Casiopea

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navi tasan said:
But can't:

1-I'd hate to have our rivals win the match.

mean the same thing? "Have" not having a "causative" meaning (I learnt to use that word in this context from your other reply) here?

To me, 'to have' in

I would hate to have them win

means,

I would hate it if it turned out that they won.

As a spectator, I cannot cause my team to win.

Try,

The coach will have/make the team win.

Compare,

I would hate to make the win. (causative; "I" cause)
I would hate to have them win. (non-causative; "I" don't cause)

More like,

I would hate to let them win. (non-causative; not within your power)
I would hate to see them win.
I would hat to have them win.

:D
 

navi tasan

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Thanks TDOL, RonBee and specially Casiopea (your name is difficult to spell, but your explanation is excellent).
 

RonBee

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navi tasan said:
Thanks RonBee.
Long time, no see.

I thought "have +infinitive without to" could be used in two ways:
a-ask, tell, order somebody to do something
b-undergo something like "have something happen to one"
I was trying to see if I could use it in this sense in that sentence.

Hey! A rhyme! :wink:

Normally it works the way you suggest. Example: "I had Ron go to the store to get some groceries." But you wouldn't have your team win the game. That suggests that you asked them to win, which is unlikely. (They would try to win anyway, wouldn't they?) You could cheer them on, but that would, of course, be something different.

:)
 

navi tasan

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Thanks RonBee.

But a coach can have his team win, right? That is in Casiopea's reply and I don't think that means that the coach asks them to win. If I have understood Casiopea's meaning correctly, he causes them to win.
I wonder if one could say:
The coach got his team to win.
 

RonBee

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Hm. This is tricky. I wouldn't use the word cause there. To say that the coach caused his team to win suggests that he got them to do something that they might not have wanted to do. That doesn't make much sense here, since they probably wanted to win anyhow. You could say that he inspired them to do their best or that he got their best effort out of them or that they played their hearts out for him. All of those would make sense.

:)
 
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