International Language Created by Chinese

[floro]

International Language Created by Chinese

by David Curtis


It was in December 2002, in England, having campaigned for Esperanto for almost thirty years, that I first read, on Internet, that Mondlango had been launched in China. Its two main features strongly attracted me: it was based upon English and Esperanto; and it had no diacritical marks. English is obviously the most popular international language, but it is very difficult to learn. Esperanto is relatively easy to learn, but is largely ignored by the international community. Esperanto is hampered by its diacritical marks, whereas English has none and is therefore easily typed for e-mail.

I was also attracted by another factor. China has the world's biggest population, and Esperanto-enthusiasts have always yearned for the development of Esperanto to reach the stage of critical mass, whereby a situation suddenly changes because of pressure. The teaching of English in China is a very expensive drain upon the resources of the Chinese government to improve the lives of its citizens: yet there seemed, until last year, no alternative. I was the only member from Britain at the First Asian Esperanto Congress, held in August, 1996, in Shanghai. Because of the many discussions I had there with Asians from many different countries, I learned that there was a great desire to be free from linguistic imperialism in the form of the necessity to learn English. As Esperanto-speakers, my fellow-members of the Congress and I hoped that the Zamenhof's aim, of providing the world with a neutral second language, would soon be achieved.

Since that Congress, "El Popola Cxinio", the world's most popular Esperanto magazine, has ceased publication, and Monato is in difficulties. Whatever popularity Esperanto has enjoyed is now on the wane. In Europe, even the looming problem of communication between the 25 countries of the European Union does not offer Esperanto-speakers any hope. In a personal letter to me, published in "Heroldo" last December, Neil Kinnock, the European Commissioner responsible for language-diversity, declined to accept that Esperanto should be taught in the schools of member-states. To me, such teaching would obviously solve the problem of communication, but there is no likelihood of it happening.

So, when I read that Mondlango had been launched in China, I could see that there was a real possibility of reaching Zamenhof's great goal, though not entirely because of his admirable invention. The power of American wealth and the former British Empire could be overcome if huge numbers of Chinese learned the new language and insisted upon using it internationally.

 

[RonBee]

I wonder how many forums you have posted that on. I am beginning to think you are a spammer. You have not engaged in conversation of any kind with other posters. Instead, you only post your articles about Mondlango.

The name of this site is UsingEnglish, not UsingMondlango.

I cannot speak for Red or Tdol, but I can speak for myself. I would not be happy to see any more posts like that one.

 

[Red5]

Google suggests at least 8 other sites:

http://www.google.com/search?source...+me:+it+was+based+upon+English+and+Esperanto"

 

[Tdol]

The power of American wealth and the former British Empire could be overcome if huge numbers of Chinese learned the new language and insisted upon using it internationally.

IF!

Just like Lobjang, Esperanto and all the others, it won't get off the ground. Floro can spam till the cows come home, but we will still be getting Chinese students coming here for help. Why? Like those who are studying media whho come here for explanations- their texts are in English. If Floro wants their language to take off, they had better start by translating a few libraries. Then people might bother learning it.

Oh, yes, and languages are about communication- the political agenda they have is a non-starter.

How can Mondlingo be neutral when its name is European-derived and its aims are the destruction of the American economic hegemony? Not to mention a bit about 19th century British wrongdoing. It's all a bit sloppy and irrelevant to me. However, if it keeps a few academics happy over their cioffee breaks, I don't worry. Didn't he\she come here a few months ago to announce the news? I can't recall hearing of anything else about it since then. ;-))

 

[Bob]

In China it does not matter what form of English you try to teach the students, they will learn Chinglish. It is a function of the mandarin structure when translated into any standard or regional form of English.

In fact, English is fast becoming an Asian language, in all of its regional forms.

 

[RonBee]

In China it does not matter what form of English you try to teach the students, they will learn Chinglish. It is a function of the mandarin structure when translated into any standard or regional form of English.

That's an interesting observation. Perhaps that's just the natural evolution of things.

In fact, English is fast becoming an Asian language, in all of its regional forms.

I never cease to be fascinated by how widely English is spoken. The president of Nigeria was here (USA) recently, and the reporters of the Nigerian press corps asked questions in English and he answered them in English. And the Nigerians displayed less of an accent (to my ears) than British speakers do.

:wink:

 

[jwschang]

In China it does not matter what form of English you try to teach the students, they will learn Chinglish. It is a function of the mandarin structure when translated into any standard or regional form of English.

That's an interesting observation. Perhaps that's just the natural evolution of things.

In fact, English is fast becoming an Asian language, in all of its regional forms.

I never cease to be fascinated by how widely English is spoken. The president of Nigeria was here (USA) recently, and the reporters of the Nigerian press corps asked questions in English and he answered them in English. And the Nigerians displayed less of an accent (to my ears) than British speakers do.

:wink:

I am of Chinese ancestry and I visit China frequently. Perhaps it was an attempt at sophistry (if one can call it that) to say that "if a huge number of Chinese INSISTED on using esperanto...", and also the suggestion of language imperialism, etc.

The Chinese people are, if not anything else, a practical people and fair-minded. I guess we can ignore that posting.

In fact, millions of Chinese in China are learning English, from taxi-drivers to engineers, and can't wait to catch up on this universal language. Nobody sees English as a threat to anybody's culture or history. AND, it is a concerted and serious endeavour, pushed by the government which funds and supports this acquisition of knowledge with huge sums of money.

But it is also incorrect to say that the English they want to learn and speak is Chinglish. It is not true, and (I guess unintentionally) not positive nor constructive. It has nothing to do with the structure of Mandarin either.

No language is the same in structure, etc, but there are very basic similarities between English and a language such as Chinese: Both are Subject-Verb-Object languages (like French, German, etc, and unlike Latin and Japanese which are Subject-Object-Verb languages). Chinese is also a word-order language to a certain extent (though not exactly like "paint the door red, and paint the red door"). Chinese is very much less inflected than English and uses much fewer prepositions, etc.

There is no attempt at "localising" English to fit Chinese. The opposite is in fact the fact: they put great emphasis on learning to use and speak English the correct way, both in pronunciation and grammar, and may even be said to be wanting to be too correct or precise (say, compared to people in Singapore). Literally hundreds of teachers, mainly native speakers, are employed in government schools and other (including many private ones) institutions for this very purpose. These institutions advertise vacancies on sites like "Teach in China.

 

[RonBee]

I find this a fascinating subject, but as I am no linguist and have no expertise in the matter, I generally do not have much to say. I do think that modern communications will prevent the various Englishes from drifting so far apart that they become separate dialects.

As I know little about Nigeria and Nigerians, I would have liked to hear the Nigerian president speak longer, but, unfortunately, he only took two questions (from the Nigerian press corps). The other reason I would have liked to hear him speak longer is that here was the president of a foreign country and he wasn't speaking a foreign language. Likewise, the Nigerian press corps did not sound at all foreign. Indeed, their manner of speaking gave me no hint that they were not Americans. The American press corps and the Nigerian press corps could have traded places, and nobody would have known the difference.

Fascinating.

 

[Bob]

Nobody sees English as a threat to anybody's culture or history.

Try reading the April 2003 English Today journal from Cambridge Press. You will quickly learn how wrong you are in this proposition.

it is a concerted and serious endeavour,

You are dead wrong again. Look at China ESL: An Industry Run Amuck at www.teachersnet.com.

It has nothing to do with the structure of Mandarin either

. Again a misstatement. See the linguistic journals published by the Guangdong Foreign Studies University Linguistics Center.

Literally hundreds of teachers, mainly native speakers, are employed in government schools and other (including many private ones) institutions for this very purpose.

Actually the published reports claim that there are between 100,000 and 150,000 "Foreign Experts" (native English speakers) teaching EFL in China. They are for the most part "backpackers" with no EFL or ESL training, let alone any teacher training. Most do not even have English degrees. These "Foreign Experts" are more window dressing than positive contributions to China. Chinese English teachers are so inadequate that middle school graduate who have studied English for 5 or 6 years are unable to speak a single coherent sentence. When we get them in College or University we spend the first year just encouraging them to open their mouths and utter English words.

I am of Chinese ancestry and I visit China frequently.

Assuming this is a true statement, you do not have a clue as to the reality in China. One provincial government requires that all of its employees, from street sweepers to Mayor, have an English vocabulary of 1,000 words. This is official promotion of Chinglish and nothing more.

Maybe your Chinese pride is blinding you to the truth about Chinglish in China but it has not escaped the Chinese linguists.

 

[jwschang]

In China it does not matter what form of English you try to teach the students, they will learn Chinglish. It is a function of the mandarin structure when translated into any standard or regional form of English.

In fact, English is fast becoming an Asian language, in all of its regional forms.

No one is saying that Chinese learners of English speak good English all round. Your use of "Chinglish" should be avoided.

No teacher (in the broadest sense of the word, and be the subject a language, mathematics or whatever) will want to say that no matter how you teach someone, they will learn it in a corrupted form.

Those who regard language as a tool for some other purpose are in the narrow-minded minority, be they Chinese or Martians, and are not worth paying attention to.

All your quotations merely show that there are immense difficulties in imparting English to the Chinese people, which again is not unique. But to call the efforts "window dressing" does sound cynical.

Your quotations only show that serious and sincere people, and authorities, in and outside of China, language journals, bodies concerned with imparting English to people who want to learn it, admit to and acknowledge the difficulties with the very aim of improving matters, but they are not cynical about the endeavour.

Native speaking teachers of English may be backpackers, but they nevertheless do a service. As a Chinese (I sincerely wish that you do not cast aspersion on this), I thank them and respect them although some may do it for the experience, or the adventure, etc.

A site like usingenglish.com is doing great service to people all over the world who struggle to learn English. And should it ever reach the ready attention of the Chinese people, I have every confidence that the overwhelming majority will welcome it as a friend and a help.

I sincerely hope that I have succeeded some way in convincing you. In fact, you appear as a person who takes great interest in language (perhaps English in particular), as seen by your familarity with the many sources that you quoted. If I may say so, you could make valuable contribution to people who desire to learn English.

 

[Tdol]

Could you give some examples of what you call Chinglish? ;-)

 

[jwschang]

Could you give some examples of what you call Chinglish? ;-)

Your question is for Bob, no doubt.

Notice the error I made in my reply (as a non-native speaker, despite years of using English): "Native speaking teachers of English"!!! (But this is not a good example of "localised" English).

 

[RonBee]

Could you give some examples of what you call Chinglish? ;-)

Your question is for Bob, no doubt.

Notice the error I made in my reply (as a non-native speaker, despite years of using English): "Native speaking teachers of English"!!! (But this is not a good example of "localised" English).

I don't see anything wrong with that. I would perhaps use a hyphen there, making it native-speaking teachers of English, but that's a quibble. Of course, if I can't quibble here where can I quibble?

:wink:

 

[jwschang]

Could you give some examples of what you call Chinglish? ;-)

Your question is for Bob, no doubt.

Notice the error I made in my reply (as a non-native speaker, despite years of using English): "Native speaking teachers of English"!!! (But this is not a good example of "localised" English).

I don't see anything wrong with that. I would perhaps use a hyphen there, making it native-speaking teachers of English, but that's a quibble. Of course, if I can't quibble here where can I quibble?

:wink:

Let's quibble where we are allowed to quibble, which is here.

I think it's wrong, because "reflexively (!!!!) I converted this from "native speakers" to "native speaking". You are a native speaker or a non-native
speaker ("native" describing the speaker), but "native speaking"???

 

[RonBee]

I consider "native-speaking" to be an adjective modifying "teachers", so I must disagree with you that you made an error.

 

[jwschang]

If anyone is interested, I would like to talk more on the subject of learning English in China.

Especially over the last two to three years, there has been a tremendous upsurge to learn English amongst the general public there. This is not just because of the upcoming 2008 Olympics in Beijing or China's entry into the WTO. The main impetus appears to be a general awakening to the economic value of English, resulting from the exponential growth in trade with the rest of the world, liberalisation of travel, etc. and the increasing numbers of foreign visitors to China.

The better-off families (and a small percentage in China translates into a huge number!) spend anything from a quarter to a third of household income on educating their ONLY child (the one-child restriction has been enforced for decades). Increasingly a big part of this is on learning English.

Thousands of Chinese students have been coming to Singapore for various courses, and unavoidably they have to master English in order to follow the course. The largest Singapore newspaper carries a section (two to three pages) on developments in China. According to such reports, well-off familities in big cities like Beijing and Shanghai pay close to USD 300 per child per month for English tuition or lessons. (Shane should be pretty familiar with what's happening there).

The perception is very definitely that the best way to learn English is from teachers who are native speakers. But because average per capita incomes are still very low and government schools are relatively poorly funded overall, this is generally not affordable.

So, native speakers are mostly engaged for oral lessons (often with a Chinese assistant teacher in the same classroom to do the necessary interpretation!). Sites like "Teach in China" (a U.S. or Canada based and organised non-profit enterprise) have sprung up to fulfil the demand for foreign teachers. They provide posting of and response to vacancies, travel, living, etc advisories to would-be teachers, and general assistance. (I have visted China regularly over the past two years, surveying the English language landscape, with the intention of eventually starting a school for adult learners there, when I am ready to do so!)

Again, for cost reasons, many of these teachers are not trained English teachers. A contract can vary from 3 months to a year, with salary ranging from a low of monthly RMB2,500 to a high of RMB8,500 (USD350 to 1,000) at school or college level, with accommodation provided. The majority are fairly young people; others are foreigners whose spouse is in a job in China.

For an adult part-time student, the fees for English lessons average RMB600-650 per month (USD75) for approx 3 lessons of 3 hours each week at private profit-making language schools, in large and economically advanced cities like Shenzhen, and costs even more in Beijing and Shanghai. That is anything from 20% to 50% of an university-educated person's salary. A full-time English programme (not leading to a degree) costs approx RMB4,000 (USD480) per 4-month term at the Shanghai International Studies University.

Another interesting thing is that English has been taught as a subject at middle and high school level for at least the last decade, but the vast majority still cannot speak or use it even in ordinary conversation. (Singapore has used English as the medium of instruction since time immemorial, but freshman students in the hard-science courses must still take special classes in English and communication!)

Among the reasons: There is hardly any day-to-day English-speaking environment in China; The typical Chinese is embarassed to be found wanting (face saving), so they'd rather avoid saying anything in English that might invite derision (although the listener probably doesn't know any better!). So, spoken English is generally very, very poor.

On the other hand, grammar and written English are relatively good in the case of many high-school graduates. This is the direct result of a Confucianist tradition (many downsides here) in which learning is taken very seriously, and one is expected to be exact in almost anything (social behaviour, family relationships, etc, learning and knowledge included), with no space for "grey areas". So the Chinese student of English tends to want to be very exact and correct in grammar and pronunciation, hence the idea that only native speakers can teach them the right way!

I should continue another time, not to bore you guys too much.

 

[Tdol]

Every sumer I teach students coming to the UK to do post-graduate courses. In recent years there has been a large increase in the numbers of students coming from China and I have to say that oral skills have generally been pretty good, although there are pronunciation difficulties in some cases. Also, many do not follow the pattern of keepiong quiet rather than make mistakes- many are linguistic risk-takers. ;-)

 

[jwschang]

Every sumer I teach students coming to the UK to do post-graduate courses. In recent years there has been a large increase in the numbers of students coming from China and I have to say that oral skills have generally been pretty good, although there are pronunciation difficulties in some cases. Also, many do not follow the pattern of keepiong quiet rather than make mistakes- many are linguistic risk-takers. ;-)

I would guess that the students of yours have gained a certain level of confidence. Back in China, even where the listener doesn't know any better, there is a strong inhibition to speak English out loud. This, I think, will gradually change in time too.

 

[Tdol]

The ones coming to the UK to study are most likely to be confident and this is what I have seen. Last year, I had a group of lawyers, with about half from Europe and the rest from China. The standard of discussion was very high, although the European fascination with EU concepts like subsidiarity probably wasn't reiprocated. ;-))

 

[whl626]

I thought that guy was serious about discussing the emergence of an international language. But in fact, it turns out that he/she keeps spamming the forums. Huh, I did give an explanation somewhere if my memory serves me right