International Language Created by Chinese

[TengYeng]

In China it does not matter what form of English you try to teach the students, they will learn Chinglish. It is a function of the mandarin structure when translated into any standard or regional form of English.

In fact, English is fast becoming an Asian language, in all of its regional forms.

No one is saying that Chinese learners of English speak good English all round. Your use of "Chinglish" should be avoided.

No teacher (in the broadest sense of the word, and be the subject a language, mathematics or whatever) will want to say that no matter how you teach someone, they will learn it in a corrupted form.



Those who regard language as a tool for some other purpose are in the narrow-minded minority, be they Chinese or Martians, and are not worth paying attention to.

All your quotations merely show that there are immense difficulties in imparting English to the Chinese people, which again is not unique. But to call the efforts "window dressing" does sound cynical.

Your quotations only show that serious and sincere people, and authorities, in and outside of China, language journals, bodies concerned with imparting English to people who want to learn it, admit to and acknowledge the difficulties with the very aim of improving matters, but they are not cynical about the endeavour.

Native speaking teachers of English may be backpackers, but they nevertheless do a service. As a Chinese (I sincerely wish that you do not cast aspersion on this), I thank them and respect them although some may do it for the experience, or the adventure, etc.

A site like usingenglish.com is doing great service to people all over the world who struggle to learn English. And should it ever reach the ready attention of the Chinese people, I have every confidence that the overwhelming majority will welcome it as a friend and a help.

I sincerely hope that I have succeeded some way in convincing you. In fact, you appear as a person who takes great interest in language (perhaps English in particular), as seen by your familarity with the many sources that you quoted. If I may say so, you could make valuable contribution to people who desire to learn English.

Have it your way but I live in China, I am not just a visitor. I am with my college students 7 days a week. Read what a foreign expert had to say "You're not like other Foreign Teachers, Mr. Ben. You don't want to play games."

This frustrating situation is what an American colleague of mine has described as the dancing monkey syndrome. Balanced precariously between valuable educational resource and cut-price entertainment service, the role of the Foreign Teacher is not often clearly defined by the institutions that recruit or employ them. This is a situation which isn't helped by the flooding of the circuit in recent years with young, unqualified teachers who see an ESL job in China as a stepping-stone to an expenses-paid holiday in return for sixteen periods of hangman each week - acting the fool and playing the dancing monkey to keep the students happy
http://www.onestopenglish.com/ProfessionalSupport/Travellog/china.htm

When you have a class of between 80 - 150 students in a "conversation" class for two 50 minute periods each week, that leaves something less than 30 seconds for each student to practice their 2nd language with a real live foreigner.

Please do not be absurd in your defense of the Chinese educational process. The foreign teachers are usless, a waste of money.

 

[Casiopea]

I'm in total agreement with you. I, too, am not a visitor; I live it).

Your final statement has me somewhat troubled, though.

The foreign teachers are us[e]less, a waste of money.

Maybe words such as 'some' or 'like you' would be more appropriate?

In order to reach Bob (the original poster), one must position oneself at his level, which means to say, lay prone on the floor and wriggle like a snake. Don't find yourself there. It's a vile position to be in. :wink:


All the best,

Cas

 

[jwschang]

I'm in total agreement with you. I, too, am not a visitor; I live it).

Your final statement has me somewhat troubled, though.

The foreign teachers are us[e]less, a waste of money.

Maybe words such as 'some' or 'like you' would be more appropriate?
In order to reach Bob (the original poster), one must position oneself at his level, which means to say, lay prone on the floor and wriggle like a snake. Don't find yourself there. It's a vile position to be in. :wink:
All the best,
Cas

TengYeng's post is directed at my comments which are viewed as defending the Chinese education system. I'm certainly not defending any system, be they Chinese or Martian, nor am I in a position to do so, nor is it my business.
Problems with students are myriad. Perhaps my own experience in teaching finance did not expose me to extreme situations. But, I'm not unaware at all about the problems, be they in China or Britain or elsewhere.
For teachers who have a choice (say visitors or foreigners) - either you teach or you quit, there's no point putting down the students themselves. For others, especially the local Chinese teacher, there's often no choice job-wise, and the pay is miserable, on top of the problems TengYeng described.
On foreign teachers of English in China, the few backpackers who teach English in China that I came to be acquainted with were enthusiastic teachers, and I personally appreciate their contribution (as I said in my comments re Bob's posting). It is precisely that teachers have to deal with tough students, conditions and bull-headed education administrators (who are often not teachers themselves but bureaucrats) that teachers should be appreciated, however "useless" they may be.
If anyone is to take the rap, it's the bureaucrats and administrators who call themselves educationists. Bob was not wrong to say there's a lot of window-dressing when it comes to the teaching of English in China. It's a scramble to get foreign native-speakers. A widespread perception is that a non-native speaker can't do a decent job of this! I have a friend studying English at Shanghai International Studies University (SISU) and I'm told that some of the local English teachers are excellent.
But students are not the source of the problem. De-motivated, indifferent, and even monstrous students are the result of the decisions made by administrators, educationists, and of family and the general social environment. In fact, in one of my postings to Shane in Dalian, I said that I've heard from Chinese friends that some young students (as young as 13-14) beat up their teachers in China, but I understand this is rarer now. Fortunately for Shane, he said that he'd not encountered anything like that. :wink:

 

[TengYeng]

"In order to reach Bob (the original poster), one must position oneself at his level, which means to say, lay prone on the floor and wriggle like a snake. Don't find yourself there. It's a vile position to be in."

Since I do not know the original poster personally and nothing in the post would tend to lead me to the same conclusion as you, could you enlighten us as to the basis for your comment?

This could be very interesting!

 

[TengYeng]

" I said that I've heard from Chinese friends that some young students (as young as 13-14) beat up their teachers in China, but I understand this is rarer now. Fortunately for Shane, he said that he'd not encountered anything like that."

A student beat a foreign teacher in Harbin just months ago.

 

[Tdol]

Sadly, violence is on the rise in many countries- both among the students and towards the teachers. In the UK, a headmaster was killed trying to protect a student and a few weeks ago a teenager was knifed to death.

They talk here about increased security systems and metal detectors, but rarely touch on the subject of the culture behind the violence.

In a system run on such bureaucratic lines where it's all about meeting targets, there is a tendency to sweep things under the carpet and pretend they don't exist, then get shocked and over-react when things happen.

A few years ago, in a place where I was teaching temporarily, I was handed a bag containing quite a number of bags of skunk- clearly a case of drug dealing. I handed them in to the director. The police were not called. That girl knows that- she had done her duty and handed them in, and they ended up in a bin rather than have a report to the police. This is, presumably, because the director wanted to maintain the good name of that instituution and not have the place seen as dodgy. That girl knew that nothing happened and so did I because neither of us was interviewed by the police. She would have told her firends and they all saw that the police did not come. The dealer would have. The net effect- to make it look easy to sell drugs there. If police cars had come in and officers stalked around, it would have sent out a clear message, even though no one would have got caught. Schools and colleges are gossipy places and a very clear message was sent out that day- if you are stupid enough to drop your stash in the toilets, nothing will happen.

The ignore it and it will go away approach to serious problems in education does not work, IMHO. ;-)

 

[claude]

well, it still took me a long time to finish reading all posts of this thread,

Could you give some examples of what you call Chinglish? ;-)

firstly, i am glad to see so many ppl all around world concerns the events/situation of china, at least, the english teaching of china.

secondly, as far as chinglish is concerned, i think i am an qualified authority on chinglish, cause i learn english all by myself, i never have an native english speaking teacher, nor have i ever gone abroad, and, i have never talk with any native english speaker. actually, i seldom speak english, i just occasionally type it :wink:

yes, i do have ever spoken english with others, but i was too nervous while i was speaking it.

then, besides my chinglish, mine is aslo what you called dumb english or deaf english, cause i hardly speak it or comprehend others' talk, it is more like a lullaby when i try to practise my listening skill.

and, my vocabulary is so small that i have to turn to a dictionary for help for tremendous of times during my reading or writing, so it always takes me a very long time to finish a reading or a writing. that is why i reluctant to talk with others, cause i can not look up dictionary as i am talking. and that is also the reason why my english is chinglish, cause when i want to express something but do not konw which word i should use, then i look up a chinese-english dictionary for that word, then i used it in my posts, however, it is often not the right word that a native would might use.

thanks computer, there are so many cyber dictionanies which are so convinient that i can put my mouse pointer on a word then it can give me a chinese explanation of that word, so i do not need to look up those paper dictionary, which save me a lot of time.

thanks internet, i can have my own native english speaking teachers though we can not talk face to face, but after all, i will benifited much from you kind and warmhearted people, i can imitate your native talking style to try avoiding being too chinglish.

well, i am too verbose, lets back to chinglish example required by tdol, hmmm, here are two classic chinglish expressions which are very popular among we chinese:
one is "long time no see", another is "good good study, day day up"

someome told me that the former chinglish i quoted is commenly used and accepted by native english speakers and wildly used, i am not sure about it, here, i just consult you english native here whether it is true or not.

and the latter one, could you please guess what is the meaning of it? :lol:
(more hint: a famous chinese saying by maozedong, you may see the chinese version in almost all chinse primary school)

 

[claude]

well, it still took me a long time to finish reading all posts of this thread,

Could you give some examples of what you call Chinglish? ;-)

firstly, i am glad to see so many ppl all around world concerns the events/situation of china, at least, the english teaching of china.

secondly, as far as chinglish is concerned, i think i am an qualified authority on chinglish, cause i learn english all by myself, i never have an native english speaking teacher, nor have i ever gone abroad, and i harldy never talk with any native english speaker. actually, i seldom speak english, i just occasionally type it :wink:

yes, i do have ever spoken english with others, but i was too nervous while i was speaking it.

then, besides my chinglish, mine is aslo what you called dumb english or deaf english, cause i hardly speak it or comprehend others' talk, it is more like a lullaby when i try to practise my listening skill.

and my vocabulary is so poor that i have to turn to a dictionary for help for tremendous of times during my reading or writing, so it always takes me a very long time to finish a reading or a writing. that is why i reluctant to talk with others, cause i can not look up dictionary when i am talking. and that also can explain why my english is chinglish, cause when i want to express something but do not konw the exactly word i should use, then i look up that word in a chinese-english dictionary , then i use it in my articles, however, it may often not the right word that a native would use.

thanks computer, there are so many cyber dictionaries which are so convenient that it can give me a chinese explanation of a word once i put my mouse pointer on the unknown word , so i do not need to look up those paper dictionary by hand, which save me a lot of time.

thanks internet, i can have my own native english speaking teachers as you guys though we can not talk face to face, but after all, i will benefited much from you kind and warmhearted people, i can imitate your native talking style to try avoiding being too much chinglish.

well, i am too verbose, lets back to chinglish examples required by tdol, hmmm, here are two classic chinglish expressions which are very popular among we chinese:
one is "long time no see", another is "good good study, day day up"

someone told me that the former chinglish i quoted is commonly used and accepted by native english speakers and was already wildly used, i am not sure about it, here, i just consult you english native for identification.

and the latter one, could you please guess what the meaning is of it? :lol:
(more hint: a famous chinese proverb by maozedong, you may see the chinese version in almost all primary school)

 

[RonBee]

well, i am too verbose, lets back to chinglish examples required by tdol, hmmm, here are two classic chinglish expressions which are very popular among we chinese:
one is "long time no see", another is "good good study, day day up"

The first one is a well-known English expression. (It may well have come originally from China.) The other one is, I think, peculiarly Chinese, or Chinglish.

 

[shane]

"good good study, day day up"

Hehe... "好好学习天天向上". I love that sentence.

I'd say something like: 'Study well, improve yourself more each day.' How's that? Of course, I'm sure there are better ways of translating it, but at least it's a suggestion to start off!

 

[RonBee]

May I make some suggestions?

well, it still took me a long time to finish reading all posts of this thread,

• Wow! It took me a long time to finish reading all posts of this thread.

firstly, i am glad to see so many ppl all around world concerns the events/situation of china, at least, the english teaching of china.

• First, I am glad to see that so many people all around the world are concerned about the current situation in China, at least concerning the teaching of English in China.

secondly, as far as chinglish is concerned, i think i am an qualified authority on chinglish, cause i learn english all by myself, i never have an native english speaking teacher, nor have i ever gone abroad, and i harldy never talk with any native english speaker. actually, i seldom speak english, i just occasionally type it :wink:

• Second, as far as Chinglish is concerned, I think I am a qualified authority on Chinglish, because I learned English all by myself. I have never had a native English-speaking teacher, nor have I ever gone abroad, and I harldy never talk with any native English speaker. Actually, I seldom speak english; I just occasionally type it. :wink:

yes, i do have ever spoken english with others, but i was too nervous while i was speaking it.

• I have occasionally spoken English with others, but it made me too nervous.

then, besides my chinglish, mine is aslo what you called dumb english or deaf english, cause i hardly speak it or comprehend others' talk, it is more like a lullaby when i try to practise my listening skill.

• Then, besides my Chinglish, mine is also what you might call dumb English or deaf English, because I hardly ever speak it, nor do I comprehend what others say when they speak English. It is like a lullaby when I try to practise my listening skills.

It makes you sleepy?
:?

and my vocabulary is so poor that i have to turn to a dictionary for help for tremendous of times during my reading or writing, so it always takes me a very long time to finish a reading or a writing. that is why i reluctant to talk with others, cause i can not look up dictionary when i am talking. and that also can explain why my english is chinglish, cause when i want to express something but do not konw the exactly word i should use, then i look up that word in a chinese-english dictionary , then i use it in my articles, however, it may often not the right word that a native would use.

• And my vocabulary is so poor that I have to turn to a dictionary for help quite often when reading or writing, so it always takes me a very long time to finish either. That is why I am reluctant to talk with others, because I cannot look words up in a dictionary while I talking. That also explains why my English is Chinglish, because when I want to say something but I do not know the exact word I should use I look up that word in a Chinese-English dictionary. I then use that word in my writing. However, it might not be the word that a native-speaker would use.

thanks computer, there are so many cyber dictionaries which are so convenient that it can give me a chinese explanation of a word once i put my mouse pointer on the unknown word , so i do not need to look up those paper dictionary by hand, which save me a lot of time.

• Thanks to the Internet, there are many cyber dictionaries that are quite convenient. When using one I can get a Chinese explanation of a word by "putting" the cursor on the strange word. Thus, I do not have to look words up in a paper dictionary by hand, and that saves me a lot of time.

thanks internet, i can have my own native english speaking teachers as you guys though we can not talk face to face, but after all, i will benefited much from you kind and warmhearted people, i can imitate your native talking style to try avoiding being too much chinglish.

• Thanks to the Internet, I now have my own native English-speaking teachers such as those on this forum. Although we cannot talk face to face, I benefit much from the help provided by you kind and warmhearted people. I can imitate your native talking style to try avoiding being too much chinglish.

well, i am too verbose, lets back to chinglish examples required by tdol, hmmm, here are two classic chinglish expressions which are very popular among we chinese:
one is "long time no see", another is "good good study, day day up"

• Well, I talk too much. Let's get back to the Chinglish expressions Tdol asked for. Hmmm, here are two classic Chinglish expressions which are very popular among us chinese:
  one is "long time no see", another is "good good study, day day up"

someone told me that the former chinglish i quoted is commonly used and accepted by native english speakers and was already wildly used, i am not sure about it, here, i just consult you english native for identification.

• Someone once told me that the first expression I quoted is commonly used and accepted by native English speakers. I am not sure about that, so I consult you native speakers for confirmation of that.

and the latter one, could you please guess what the meaning is of it? :lol:
(more hint: a famous chinese proverb by maozedong, you may see the chinese version in almost all primary school)

• As for the second one, could you please guess what the meaning of it is? :lol:
  (Hint: It's a famous Chinese proverb by Maozedong. You can see the Chinese version in almost all primary schools.)

How did I do?

 

[Tdol]

then, besides my chinglish, mine is aslo what you called dumb english or deaf english, cause i hardly speak it or comprehend others' talk, it is more like a lullaby when i try to practise my listening skill.

I'm learning Japanese at the moment, so I am getting an idea of how difficult English is. ;-)

 

[Tdol]

"good good study, day day up"

Hehe... "好好学习天天向上". I love that sentence.

I'd say something like: 'Study well, improve yourself more each day.' How's that? Of course, I'm sure there are better ways of translating it, but at least it's a suggestion to start off!

I think I prefer the original. ;-)

 

[claude]

How did I do?

Thank you, RonBee, Your help is greatly appreciated.

You are always a helpful quick responser.

I have read your corrections of my post carefully for two times, It must be a tough work because I had made so many mistakes, I am grateful for your patient corrections.
I believe I can learn a lot from my mistakes and your replies. Again, Thanks!

 

[claude]

"good good study, day day up"

Hehe... "好好学习天天向上". I love that sentence.

I'd say something like: 'Study well, improve yourself more each day.' How's that? Of course, I'm sure there are better ways of translating it, but at least it's a suggestion to start off!

You have got it, Shane, and you can input Chinese. That is quite beyond my expectation.

 

[Tdol]

Here's a site about artifical languages:
http://www.rick.harrison.net

 

[mark in perth]

Gee, maybe I, the world's least computer-competent human, have stumbled upon a site that I will enjoy!! This is my first round, and the subject matter is interesting. I am a tutor with deep roots in traditional grammar (I spent five years teaching TOEFL etc. in Indonesia.); but I am fascinated by, and now formally studying, linguistics. Let's see what happens.

Mark in Perth

 

[Tdol]

I hope you do. ;-)