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Taka

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(1) Without a computer, a lot of people nowadays feel uneasy, irritated, which are symptoms of addiction.

(2) With their computer disconnected, a lot of people nowadays feel uneasy, irritated, which are symptoms of addiction.

(3 ) Without using a computer, a lot of people nowadays feel uneasy, irritated, which are symptoms of addiction.


(3) is the sentence written by a friend of mine, and he is asking me if it works or not. IMO, (3) is weird but I cannot explain well why; it just doesn't feel right.

Well, maybe I'm wrong and there is nothing wrong in the sentence (3) . If so, then that's fine.

Could anybody tell me if it works or not, and if not, then why?
 

Francois

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I don't like it either. "Without using a computer" looks like "I don't/didn't even need a computer".

FRC
 

twostep

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Francois said:
I don't like it either. "Without using a computer" looks like "I don't/didn't even need a computer".

FRC

How about "without access to a computer ..."?
 

Tdol

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'Access' works, but the original sentence doesn't- I'd use 'access'or 1.;-)
 

Taka

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tdol said:
'Access' works, but the original sentence doesn't- I'd use 'access'or 1.;-)

tdol, could you tell me why "using" in "Without using a computer, a lot of people nowadays feel uneasy..." doesn't work? The same reason as Francois's?
 

Casiopea

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Taka said:
(3) Without using a computer, a lot of people nowadays feel uneasy, irritated, which is are symptoms of addiction.

It's a dangling participle.

First, the modifying phrase 'Without using' expresses, Don't use/Try not to use. It's imperative; Its subject is (you):

Without (you) using a computer, type this document.
Type this document without (you) using a computer.
==>(You) Don't use a computer to type this document.
==>(You) Try not to use a computer to type this document.

Second, the subject of 'Without (you) using' and the subject of 'people feel uneasy' are not coreferential; they are not one and the same:

Without (you) using a computer, people feel uneasy. (Odd)
People feel uneasy without (you) using a computer. (Odd)
==> (You) Don't use a computer; people feel uneasy. (Odd)
==>(You) Try not to use a computer; people feel uneasy. (Odd)

In short, in A. the subjects agree, whereas in B. the subjects don't agree.

A. Without (you) using your hands, (you) pick up this pencil. :D
B. Without (you) using a computer, people feel uneasy. :(

Dangling Participle
When a modifier improperly modifies something, it is called a dangling participle.

Repair Strategy: Replace the participle with a non-participle nominal.

EX: Without the use of a computer, poeple feel uneasy.
EX: Without access to a computer, people feel uneasy.

All the best, :D
 

Taka

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Casiopea said:
First, the modifying phrase 'Without using' expresses, Don't use/Try not to use. It's imperative; Its subject is (you):

I disagree.

(Examples)

Mike Craig uses Tween as a surfactant to allow the coating to penetrate. Without using it, he says that the coating is uneven.

http://www.apug.org/forums/archive/t-8738.html

He had a closed umbrella in his hand. He walked back through the rain without using it.

http://www.reppe.com/Dispatch_stories/VA_Pentagon.htm


The subjects of "using"s above are not (you).
 

Casiopea

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Taka said:
Mike Craig uses Tween as a surfactant to allow the coating to penetrate. Without using it, he says that the coating is uneven.

He had a closed umbrella in his hand. He walked back through the rain without using it.

Given that context, yes. :up:

Without him using it, he says/he walked.... (OK; Coreferential)

Now try the original context:

1. Without them using it, people feel uneasy. (Not OK)
2. People feel uneasy without them using it. (Not OK)

The subjects in 1. and 2., respectively, are not coreferential.

Nonetheless you brought up a good point. Thank you. :D Let's try using the same verb category (i.e., stative verbs):

Without being able to use it, people feel uneasy. (OK)

Seems to me that the verbs as well as the subjects have to agree in kind.

All the best, :D
 

Francois

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I don't agree with (or haven't understood) the imperative argument and the implicit 'you' either, but I don't think the "Mike Craig..." sentence is correct. The umbrella one is fine.

FRC
 

Casiopea

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Francois said:
I don't agree with (or haven't understood) the imperative argument and the implicit 'you' either, but I don't think the "Mike Craig..." sentence is correct. The umbrella one is fine.

FRC

Why do you feel the Mike Craig sentence is incorrect? It's just topicalized:

Mike Craig uses Tween as a surfactant to allow the coating to penetrate. Without using it, he says that the coating is uneven.

He says that the coating is uneven without using it.

All the best, :D
 

Taka

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You leap from one point to another, Cas. You said "the subject is (you)."

Anyway, I cannot still accept your analysis.
 

Casiopea

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Taka said:
You leap from one point to another, Cas.

Sorry for leaping. I'll take off my ballet shoes. :oops:

Taka said:
You said "the subject is (you)."

Yes, that's correct, and in that context, the semantics accommodate (you) as the subject. 8)

Taka said:
Anyway, I still cannot accept your analysis.

Which one? The first one or the second one? :lol:
 

Taka

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Casiopea said:
Taka said:
You said "the subject is (you)."

Yes, that's correct, and in that context, the semantics accommodate (you) as the subject. 8)

What? You suggested two restatements for the single original sentence:

Casiopea said:
Without (you) using a computer, people feel uneasy.


Casiopea said:
Without them using it, people feel uneasy.


Casiopea said:
Taka said:
Anyway, I still cannot accept your analysis.

Which one? The first one or the second one? :lol:

Quite honestly, everything...
 

Tdol

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Taka said:
tdol said:
'Access' works, but the original sentence doesn't- I'd use 'access'or 1.;-)

tdol, could you tell me why "using" in "Without using a computer, a lot of people nowadays feel uneasy..." doesn't work? The same reason as Francois's?

It doesn't make sense to me- it suggests that people are ableto feel uneasy in ways other than by using a computer.;-)
 

Taka

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tdol said:
Taka said:
tdol said:
'Access' works, but the original sentence doesn't- I'd use 'access'or 1.;-)

tdol, could you tell me why "using" in "Without using a computer, a lot of people nowadays feel uneasy..." doesn't work? The same reason as Francois's?

It doesn't make sense to me- it suggests that people are ableto feel uneasy in ways other than by using a computer.;-)

You mean "without using" sounds similar to "except for using"?
 

Casiopea

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Taka said:
What? You suggested two restatements for the single original sentence:

Casiopea said:
1. Without (you) using a computer, people feel uneasy. (Not OK)
2. Without them using it, people feel uneasy. (Not OK)

Really? Don't you see the same line of argument?

In 1. the subjects '(you)' and 'people' are not coreferential, and in 2. the subjects 'them' and 'people' are still not coreferential, 'not coreferential' being the emphasis here. :wink:

Whether we interpret the subject as (you) or 'them' or even 'their' doesn't matter. Coreferencing is a problem in that context. :wink:
 

Taka

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Whether "you" or "them", I don't see any reason you put those two.
 

Taka

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OK, let me put it this way. What about this sentence?

Without using a computer, he feels uneasy, irritated, which are symptom of addiction.

Does it make sense?
 

Francois

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Not to me. I think Tdol and I are saying the same thing. Your sentence implies (to me) that there are potentially several ways he could feel uneasy, but in this case he didn't need to use a computer to get that feeling.

He says that the coating is uneven without using it.
It sounds like he doesn't need to use it to make it uneven....

FRC
 

Taka

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Isn't it possible to take "without" as "if not"?
 
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