Participle/gerund

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moseen

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Why in the first sentence, is "asking" a gerund, but in the second one it is "participle", please?
1. John suggested asking Bill.
2. John kept asking Bill.
 

Matthew Wai

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Have you ever thought about the following questions about gerunds and participles?

Most native English-speakers happily spend a lifetime without knowing or caring about the difference.

Is there a good reason why you need to label -ing words?
Is somebody forcing you to do so?
Are you failing exams because of it?
Does it prevent your understanding of the language?
Have you nothing more important to worry about?
 

moseen

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Have you ever thought about the following questions about gerunds and participles?
For any language is the same, But the one who works on language literature, I think they must know the grammatical reasons.
they also must be able To recognize the differences between them.
 

Tarheel

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Why in the first sentence, is "asking" a gerund, but in the second one it is "participle", please?
1. John suggested asking Bill.
2. John kept asking Bill.

I am not sure it is a gerund in the first sentence. Why do you think it is?
 

PaulMatthews

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For any language is the same, But the one who works on language literature, I think they must know the grammatical reasons.
they also must be able To recognize the differences between them.

Yes, but what research have you done on this?
 

emsr2d2

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Why, in the first sentence, is "asking" a gerund, but in the second one it is a (no quotation marks here) participle (no quotation marks here), please?
1. John suggested asking Bill.
2. John kept asking Bill.

For any language, it is the same, but [STRIKE]the one[/STRIKE] anyone who works on language literature (no comma here) [STRIKE]I think they must know the grammatical reasons.
they also must[/STRIKE] should be able to recognize the [STRIKE]differences[/STRIKE] difference between them.

Yes, you are right, "using the correct form [STRIKE]correct[/STRIKE] is more important than naming it".

I read this [STRIKE]in[/STRIKE] on [STRIKE]the[/STRIKE] Wikipedia.
Reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/-ing

See my corrections above. I'm not sure what you meant by "language literature". Someone studying linguistics would need to know the difference but I don't think an English Literature student needs to.
 

Matthew Wai

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1. John suggested something.
John suggested asking Bill. 'Asking' is a gerund because 'something' is a pronoun.
2. John kept on asking Bill. 'Asking' is a gerund because it is used after a preposition.
John kept asking Bill. The preposition can be omitted.
 

PaulMatthews

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Why in the first sentence, is "asking" a gerund, but in the second one it is "participle", please?
1. John suggested asking Bill.
2. John kept asking Bill.

There is no reason to say there is any difference since in both cases "asking Bill" can be replaced by a direct object, so "asking" in both 1. and 2. would be called a gerund in traditional grammar:

"John suggested a pet dog for Christmas" / "John kept a pet dog".
 
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TheParser

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Hello, Moseen:

I have found a detailed explanation from one expert why "keep (on)" cannot be followed by an object (thus, the -ing word after "keep (on)" cannot be a gerund, in her opinion).

She explains that a sentence such as yours is similar to "We went tobogganing." She explains that "go + -ing" is a verb phrase.

She says that "go" (like "keep (on)") is a catenative verb.

You can read her article by googling: "We went tobogganing" the grammar exchange. (It will be the first result on the page. I do not know how to link.)
 

PaulMatthews

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Hello, Moseen:

I have found a detailed explanation from one expert why "keep (on)" cannot be followed by an object (thus, the -ing word after "keep (on)" cannot be a gerund, in her opinion).

She explains that a sentence such as yours is similar to "We went tobogganing." She explains that "go + -ing" is a verb phrase.

She says that "go" (like "keep (on)") is a catenative verb.

You can read her article by googling: "We went tobogganing" the grammar exchange. (It will be the first result on the page. I do not know how to link.)

The OP was asking about "suggest" and "keep" (not "keep on") and why the former is a gerund and the latter a participle. This of course alludes to traditional rather than modern grammar.

In modern grammar, "suggest" and "keep" are analysed as catenative verbs and "asking Bill" in each case is a catenative complement.

But I suggest that is a level of grammar beyond the OP's understanding at present.
 

Tarheel

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The acronym EGO comes to mind.
 
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With respect to PaulMatthews, I disagree with his response #10. "John suggested a pet dog for Christmas" / "John kept a pet dog". In his second example, kept (keep) means to maintain; to provide support; to retain. In the OP, John does not 'retain' asking Bill. He continues the asking of Bill. It's not the same usage of 'keep'.

1. Suggest is a transitive verb. "Asking Bill" is its object- a thing that John does- a noun- a gerund.
2. Kept is intransitive in this usage. It's a helping verb, and asking is the participle.
 
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PaulMatthews

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With respect to PaulMatthews, I disagree with his response #10. "John suggested a pet dog for Christmas" / "John kept a pet dog". In his second example, kept (keep) means to maintain; to provide support; to retain. In the OP, John does not 'retain' asking Bill. He continues the asking of Bill. It's not the same usage of 'keep'.

1. Suggest is a transitive verb. "Asking Bill" is its object- a thing that John does- a noun- a gerund.
2. Kept is intransitive in this usage. It's a helping verb, and asking is the participle.

Preliminary point: this discussion highlights one of the reasons why there is no point in retaining the traditional distinction between 'gerund' and 'present participle'. Endless disagreements abound about whether the ing form of a particular verb in a particular clause is a gerund or a participle, resulting in learners being left either confused or misinformed. One alternative and widely accepted approach maintains that there is no viable distinction in function and calls the ing form simply 'gerund-participle'.

My answer was intended to demonstrate that since a clausal complement of "suggest" and "keep" (like "asking Bill") can be replaced by a noun phrase, but not by an adjective phrase, "asking" must be a gerund and not a participle, at least in traditional grammar. In other words, the similarity between the two expressions is not that they have the same meaning (they don't), but that they head expressions with the same function (direct object). In other words "asking Bill" is closer to a noun that an adjective and hence is best analysed as a gerund, not a present participle.

The point here is that in traditional grammar, 'gerunds' are said to be like a nouns while 'present participles' are like adjectives. The latter can be clearly seen in an example like:

[1] People [earning $50,000 a year] don't qualify for the rebate."
[2] [Moderately affluent] people don't qualify for the rebate."

Here, the bracketed parts are alike in that they both modify the head noun "people". In [1] the brackets surround a clause with the verb "earning" as head; in [2] we have an adjective phrase with the adjective "affluent" as head. "Earning" and "affluent" are thus similar in that each heads an expression modifying a noun. But there is nothing in "John kept asking Bill" to indicate that "asking" is functioning like, or replaceable by, an adjective, and thus no reason to classify it as a present participle. (Incidentally, "kept" is not a 'helping verb' as you put it - not that that is relevant here).

Now for a better analysis:

"John suggested [asking Bill]."
"John kept [asking Bill]."

"Suggest" and "keep" are both catenative verbs and the non-finite clause "asking Bill" is functioning as catenative complement. In neither example do we attempt to claim that "asking" is a gerund or a participle - it doesn't matter - "asking" is simply a gerund participle verb-form heading the bracketed gerund-participial clause functioning as catenative complement of "suggested" and "kept".

For those not familiar with the term 'catenative', the word is derived from the Latin word for "chain", which is appropriate here since the construction consists of a chain of verbs in which all except the last have a non-finite complement.
 
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