past perfect with BEFORE and AFTER

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davidsordi

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could anyone advise please the difference between (if any):

AFTER I had finished my school I went to Canada.
I had finished my school BEFORE I went to Canada.
 

RonBee

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could anyone advise please the difference between (if any):

AFTER I had finished my schoolingI went to Canada.
I had finished my schooling BEFORE I went to Canada.
You are just using different words to say the same thing.

Can you justify using past perfect? What is wrong with saying:
After I finished my schooling I went to Canada.
:?:
 

davidgegia

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AFTER I HAD FINISHED MY SCHOOL I WENT TO CANADA. (I THINK PAST PERFECT EMPASISES THAT ONE PAST ACTION CONCLUDED IN ORDER TO OPEN THE WAY FOR THE OTHER ACTION TO HAPPEN IN OTHER WORDS THE PREFERENCE OR OBLIGATION WAS TO FINISH THE SCHOOL FIRST BEFORE GOING TO CANADA).

AFTER I FINISHED MY SCHOOL I WENT TO CANADA.(MAY IMPLY MORE OF INTRODUSING FACTS OF HOW THINGS DEVELOPED)

ANYBODY DISAGREE?
 

banderas

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You are just using different words to say the same thing.


Can you justify using past perfect? What is wrong with saying:
After I finished my schooling I went to Canada.​
:?:
Indeed!
One should be aware of the Past Perfect Tense and that is beyond any discussion. On the other hand, I barely hear native speakers using this tense in their speech. All of us know that "the Past Perfect expresses the idea that something occurred before another action in the past. It can also show that something happened before a specific time in the past."
I do think, however, that either "after" or "before" do the job as BobK's sentence shows above. :up:
 

riverkid

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Indeed!
1. On the other hand, I barely hear native speakers using this tense in their speech.

2. All of us know that "the Past Perfect expresses the idea that something occurred before another action in the past.

3. It can also show that something happened before a specific time in the past."

4. I do think, however, that either "after" or "before" do the job as BobK's sentence shows above. :up:

Hi, everyone.

I have a question of the tense in the adverbial clause of time introduced by since or when:
When the verb in the main clause is the past perfect, what tense should be used in the dependent clause? Here is an example:
John had worked hard since he came (or had come?) to the factory.

Thanks.


John had worked hard since he had come to the factory.
John had worked hard since he'd come to the factory.

https://www.usingenglish.com/forum/ask-teacher/65903-tense-adverbial-clause-time.html

The four points raised by Banderas and the reply of David L in another thread on the same issue seem to point to something more happening here. If #2 is the reason for the past perfect, why is there sometimes the option to not use it?

And why, in the thread above, has that option seemingly disappeared?
 

engee30

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AFTER I HAD FINISHED MY SCHOOL I WENT TO CANADA. (I THINK PAST PERFECT EMPASISES THAT ONE PAST ACTION CONCLUDED IN ORDER TO OPEN THE WAY FOR THE OTHER ACTION TO HAPPEN IN OTHER WORDS THE PREFERENCE OR OBLIGATION WAS TO FINISH THE SCHOOL FIRST BEFORE GOING TO CANADA).

AFTER I FINISHED MY SCHOOL I WENT TO CANADA.(MAY IMPLY MORE OF INTRODUSING FACTS OF HOW THINGS DEVELOPED)

ANYBODY DISAGREE?

This is what I know about the difference.

You normally use the past simple tense with after and before when one action preceding another happens immediately or within a short time apart (it's up to the speaker what they think a short time is). Otherwise, you use the past perfect tense:

After she finished with the fruit salad, Mum started to lay the table.
After she had left university, Monica found a well-paid job in advertising.


Before Mum started to lay the table, she finished with the fruit salad.
Before Monica found a well-paid job, she had left university.


Now if you see a sentence like the above, with the past perfect simple tense used, you might well think of this idea; the author of the sentence might have had such in their mind, who knows.
:)
 

engee30

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Having said "the author" you meant a writer apparently, not a speaker...

Either way. ;-)

The author of the written word is the writer, and the author of the spoken word is the speaker.
:-D
 

banderas

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Either way. ;-)

The author of the written word is the writer, and the author of the spoken word is the speaker.
:-D
Show me a speaker excluding English teachers who use Past Perfect tense in his speech:-D;-). Or perhaps ask an ordinary English native speaker what is this tense about. :lol: Expect such a reaction=:shock::roll::?:
 

engee30

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Show me a speaker excluding English teachers who use Past Perfect tense in his speech:-D;-). Or perhaps ask an ordinary English native speaker what is this tense about. :lol: Expect such a reaction=:shock::roll::?:

You may well be right about that. ;-) That said, I used this tense today, at work. So I'm certain they use it too, and surely they'll know something about it.
 

banderas

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That said, I used this tense today, at work. So I'm certain they use it too, and surely they'll know something about it.
something about it:lol:well said! They surely hear it from you ;-)but I do not think they use it. I really doubt if even our Teachers in this forum make a sentence in Past Perfect Tense...
Can anybody prove me wrong, please?
 

engee30

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...
They surely hear it from you ;-)but I do not think they use it...

Can anybody prove me wrong, please?

I can prove you wrong right now. :-D

One of my workmates wanted to explained me why he had done something the way he did. What he had to do to explain to me why was to use the past perfect tense in a conditional sentence. So they know how it works and what it is for.
But speaking of the conjunctions after and before - you still may be right about that they never, or hardly ever, use the past perfect tense with them.
 

banderas

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I can prove you wrong right now. :-D

One of my workmates wanted to explained me why he had done something the way he did. What he had to do to explain to me why was to use the past perfect tense in a conditional sentence.

Ok, he was explaining some English grammar to you. What I meant was an ordinary conversation between English speakers. An ordinary one without any English grammar nuisances involed.
What am I getting at?
Please native speakers, why don't you use Present Perfect Tense. It does not bother me that you do not. I do not either. What bothers me is why? My idea is that speakers aim at keeping English simple but I am not sure... Are you???
 
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RonBee

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I am afraid you haven't been paying attention.

AFTER I HAD FINISHED MY SCHOOL I WENT TO CANADA.


That is not an English sentence. ("After I finished my school"makes no sense.) Try:
After I finished my schooling, I went to Canada.
AFTER I FINISHED MY SCHOOL I WENT TO CANADA


Say:
After I finished my schooling, I went to Canada.​
Concocting your own theories of English grammar is not helping you learn English. Focus on how English is really spoken. (Please avoid using all caps.)

~R
 

riverkid

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After she had finished with the fruit salad, Mum had started to set the table.

Before Mum had started to set the table, she had finished with the fruit salad.

After she had left university, Monica had found a well-paid job in advertising.

Before Monica had found the well-paid job, she had left university.

And yet, it's certainly possible, and not at all ungrammatical, to have a 'had' in each clause.
 

riverkid

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One of my workmates wanted to explained me why he had done something the way he did. What he had to do to explain to me why was to use the past perfect tense in a conditional sentence. So they know how it works and what it is for.

Can you recount the example sentence, Engee?
 

davidgegia

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Hi guys again,

1. my initial question was if the 2 below were different in meaning:

AFTER I HAD FINISHED MY SCHOOLING I WENT TO CANADA.
I HAD FINISHED MY SCHOOLING BEFORE I WENT TO CANADA.

THEY CARRY SAME MEANING AS FAR AS I KNOW BUT I WANTED TO KNOW IF ANYBODY COULD COME UP WITH SOMETHING DIFFERENT. (I see we all agree that they have the same meaning)

2. My other question was if the 2 below could be explained more specifically(in real life situations) rather than concluding the same cliches, as most books do, saying that one past action happened before the other past action occurred.

a) AFTER I HAD FINISHED MY SCHOOLING I WENT TO CANADA. (I THINK PAST PERFECT EMPASISES THAT ONE PAST ACTION CONCLUDED IN ORDER TO OPEN THE WAY FOR THE OTHER ACTION TO HAPPEN, IN OTHER WORDS ,THE PREFERENCE OR OBLIGATION WAS TO FINISH THE SCHOOL FIRST BEFORE GOING TO CANADA. HE WOULD NOT HAVE PROBABLY WANTED TO GO TO CANADA WITHOUT ACCOMPLISHING HIS SCHOOL MATTERS).

b) AFTER I FINISHED MY SCHOOL I WENT TO CANADA.(MAY IMPLY MORE OF A SEQUENCE OF FACTS(NOTE THAT PAST SIMPLE USE WITH BEFORE/AFTER IS AMERICAN ENGLISH PREFERENCE TOO)

This is all I want to explore here, so there is no need of clinging on to my mistake (school or schooling as per RonBee), because it shows no more than avoidance of the question.(I am not a native speaker but very proud of trying to get a better insight of the language:))
Banderas, you could also draw some parallels between the English and Polish languages where you can get deeper understanding.
What frustrates me and students most is that they hear the same thing that makes no proper sense to them e.g if we say that one past action happened before the other past action would give them very little because it is not situational. Many teachers do not notice the obstacles students face. The language is not about formulas(Math) but real life situations and contexts. there must be an answer if we raise a question what makes you say that? whatever we say has its reason to be said (I do not think we use past perfect simply to show that something happened before something - it looks more of a "get out clause":))

Cheers
 
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banderas

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a) AFTER I HAD FINISHED MY SCHOOLING I WENT TO CANADA. (I THINK PAST PERFECT EMPASISES THAT ONE PAST ACTION CONCLUDED IN ORDER TO OPEN THE WAY FOR THE OTHER ACTION TO HAPPEN, IN OTHER WORDS ,THE PREFERENCE OR OBLIGATION WAS TO FINISH THE SCHOOL FIRST BEFORE GOING TO CANADA. HE WOULD NOT HAVE PROBABLY WANTED TO GO TO CANADA WITHOUT ACCOMPLISHING HIS SCHOOL MATTERS). I agree with you on this.

b) AFTER I FINISHED MY SCHOOL I WENT TO CANADA.(MAY IMPLY MORE OF A SEQUENCE OF FACTS(NOTE THAT PAST SIMPLE USE WITH BEFORE/AFTER IS AMERICAN ENGLISH PREFERENCE TOO). You are right.


The language is not about the formulas(Math) but real life situations and contexts.
A good point. I believe that Past Perfect Tense is not completely about real life situations as I see it mostly in literature. Therefore it is so difficult to grasp. Still do not know why it is so uncommon in spoken language. :-(


Cheers
d
 
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