related/relevant V.S. relation/relationship

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blacknomi

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Dear teachers,

This is a rather heavy subject. I just can't get my head around.
Would you kindly point out which is the correct form and offer further explanation if there is any subtle difference between each lexical usage.


Here you are,
(a)
The actual cost bears close relation to what we expected.
The actual cost is closely related to what we expected.
The actual cost bears is closely relevant to what we expected.
There is a close relationship between the actual cost and what we expected.


(b)
The theory bears little relevance to practice.
The theory bears little relation to practice.


(c)
For more relevant topics, please go to UsingEnglis.com.
For more related topics, please go to UsingEnglis.com.


(d)
Is umemployment causually related to crime?
Is umemployment causually relevant to crime?


(e)
After this incidence, we broke off diplomatic relations with their country.
After this incidence, we broke off diplomatic relationships with their country.


(f)
The relation between landlorad and tenant remains a myth.
The relationship between landlorad and tenant remains a myth.


(g)
What does "relations" in this phrase of "friends and relations"?


(h)
What's their relation?
What's their relationship?
 

Casiopea

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related (adj.) implies a comparison
relation (n.) implies a comparison or relationship
relevant (adj.) implies importance
relationship (n.) implies an association between people/organizations

:D
 

MikeNewYork

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blacknomi said:
Dear teachers,

This is a rather heavy subject. I just can't get my head around.
Would you kindly point out which is the correct form and offer further explanation if there is any subtle difference between each lexical usage.


Here you are,
(a)
The actual cost bears close relation to what we expected.
The actual cost is closely related to what we expected.
The actual cost bears is closely relevant to what we expected.
There is a close relationship between the actual cost and what we expected.

The third one is clearly wrong. A cost cannot be relevant to the expected cost. And "bears is closely relevant" has no meaning.

The other three are grammatical, but none of them are very good. The actual cost was close to the expected/estimated cost. This is actually what the person is trying to say.


(b)
The theory bears little relevance to practice.
The theory bears little relation to practice.

Both of these are used, along with "bears little relationship". The classic phrase is "bears little resemblance".

(c)
For more relevant topics, please go to UsingEnglis.com.
For more related topics, please go to UsingEnglis.com.

These are both fine, but they can have different meanings. The first sends you to find topics that are more relevant to the issue than the other topics or to find additinal relevant topics. The second sends you only for additional topics that are also related.

(d)
Is umemployment causually related to crime?
Is umemployment causually relevant to crime?

I think you want "causally", related to "causing" -- not casually, related to being casual.

I would only use the first. To be causally related means to have something to do with the cause. "Causally relevant" doesn't have much meaning for me.


(e)
After this incidence, we broke off diplomatic relations with their country.
After this incidence, we broke off diplomatic relationships with their country.

In this case, "relations" is the only possible choice. It is the standard way to describe diplomacy.

(f)
The relation between landlorad and tenant remains a myth.
The relationship between landlorad and tenant remains a myth.

In this case, one would use "relationship".

(g)
What does "relations" in this phrase of "friends and relations"?

That means "people who are related to the speaker".

(h)
What's their relation?
What's their relationship?

Again, use "relationship" there.

The words "relation" and "relationship" have some overlap, but they are not always interchangeable. Read the definitions carefully. If you have other questions, let me know. :wink:
 

blacknomi

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Dear Mike,

Thank you very much indeed, as always. I'll get this done by today and I'm afraid I have to bother you again. :oops:

Could you kindly offer a few sample tests for I can fill in the blanks to see if I get it?


Good night there.
 

blacknomi

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Student or Learner
MikeNewYork said:
blacknomi said:
Here you are,
(a)
The actual cost bears close relation to what we expected.
The actual cost is closely related to what we expected.
The actual cost bears is closely relevant to what we expected.
There is a close relationship between the actual cost and what we expected.

The third one is clearly wrong. A cost cannot be relevant to the expected cost. And "bears is closely relevant" has no meaning.
The other three are grammatical, but none of them are very good. The actual cost was close to the expected/estimated cost. This is actually what the person is trying to say.
The actual cost bears close relation to what we expected to be. (Is it better?)
--The sales performance is related to employee's working attitude.
--The sales performance is relevant to employee's working attitude.
--There's a close relation between sales performance and employee's working attitude. ( I used 'relation' instead of 'relationship' in this case because I think the former is dealt with more abstract idea such as performance and attitude, whereas relationship is used in a more human relation way, is that right?)

Besides, I think it's not proper to say "The sales performance is close to employee's working attitude."

That's all by now. My class starts within 1 minute. Have to split now. More later.
 

RonBee

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blacknomi said:
Dear Mike,

Thank you very much indeed, as always. I'll get this done by today and I'm afraid I have to bother you again. :oops:

Could you kindly offer a few sample tests for I can fill in the blanks to see if I get it?


Good night there.

Um, may I interrupt? You can't use by with today. (True, you did do that.) We only use by with a future time, which is why we don't use by with today. You could, for example, say:
  • I'll do that by five o'clock.
Or:
  • I'll do that by tomorrow some time.

How about a rhyme?
  • If you have a sick cat
    Mike can help you with that.

:)
 

blacknomi

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Student or Learner
MikeNewYork said:
blacknomi said:
The theory bears little relevance to practice.
The theory bears little relation to practice.

Both of these are used, along with "bears little relationship". The classic phrase is "bears little resemblance".
I see it.

MikeNewYork said:
blacknomi said:
(c)
For more relevant topics, please go to UsingEnglis.com.
For more related topics, please go to UsingEnglis.com.

These are both fine, but they can have different meanings. The first sends you to find topics that are more relevant to the issue than the other topics or to find additinal relevant topics. The second sends you only for additional topics that are also related.
If I ask a teacher a question of 'preposition' at esl.about.com, and you direct me to UsingEnglish.com to get more answers about preposition. Also if I have further grammatical questions such as phrasal preposition, adjective and so on, surely I can find them at UE. They are relevent topics. But for related topics, they are questions of 'preposition' only.

In this case,'relevant' deals with a broader scope than 'related'. Is that right?


MikeNewYork said:
blacknomi said:
Is umemployment causually related to crime?
Is umemployment causually relevant to crime?

I think you want "causally", related to "causing" -- not casually, related to being casual.

I would only use the first. To be causally related means to have something to do with the cause. "Causally relevant" doesn't have much meaning for me.
It was very true. That's my fault. :oops:



MikeNewYork said:
blacknomi said:
(e)
After this incidence, we broke off diplomatic relations with their country.
After this incidence, we broke off diplomatic relationships with their country.

In this case, "relations" is the only possible choice. It is the standard way to describe diplomacy.
OK, I have to accept it. :wink:



MikeNewYork said:
blacknomi said:
(f)
The relation between landlorad and tenant remains a myth.
The relationship between landlorad and tenant remains a myth.

In this case, one would use "relationship".
I don't quite get it by your meaning 'in this case.'
How about in this case?
The relation between Iraq and USA is tight.
The relationship between Iraq and USA is tight. :?:


And this?
The relation between the war at Iraq and the price of pretrolium is obviously close.
The relationship between the war at Iraq and the price of pretrolium is obviously close. :?:
As I analysed before, I'd use 'relation' in this case because 'war' and 'price' are not concrete idea for me.


MikeNewYork said:
blacknomi said:
(g)
What does "relations" in this phrase of "friends and relations"?

That means "people who are related to the speaker".
I see.



Please kindly rescue the sick cat in water. :?
 

blacknomi

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Student or Learner
RonBee said:
blacknomi said:
Dear Mike,

Thank you very much indeed, as always. I'll get this done by today and I'm afraid I have to bother you again. :oops:

Could you kindly offer a few sample tests for I can fill in the blanks to see if I get it?


Good night there.

Um, may I interrupt? You can't use by with today. (True, you did do that.) We only use by with a future time, which is why we don't use by with today. You could, for example, say:
  • I'll do that by five o'clock.
Or:
  • I'll do that by tomorrow some time.

How about a rhyme?
  • If you have a sick cat
    Mike can help you with that.

:)

Dear Ron, thanks for correction.
How about
"I'll do that today by five o'clock."


Could you make a rhyme in your sleep? :lol: :lol: :lol:
 

RonBee

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blacknomi said:
RonBee said:
blacknomi said:
Dear Mike,

Thank you very much indeed, as always. I'll get this done by today and I'm afraid I have to bother you again. :oops:

Could you kindly offer a few sample tests for I can fill in the blanks to see if I get it?


Good night there.

Um, may I interrupt? You can't use by with today. (True, you did do that.) We only use by with a future time, which is why we don't use by with today. You could, for example, say:
  • I'll do that by five o'clock.
Or:
  • I'll do that by tomorrow some time.

How about a rhyme?
  • If you have a sick cat
    Mike can help you with that.

:)

Dear Ron, thanks for correction.
How about
"I'll do that today by five o'clock."

That is good.

:)


blacknomi said:
Could you make a rhyme in your sleep? :lol: :lol: :lol:

I think probably I have. At least, I have gotten up in the middle of the night to write them down.

:wink:
 

blacknomi

Key Member
Joined
Apr 21, 2004
Member Type
Student or Learner
blacknomi said:
MikeNewYork said:
blacknomi said:
Here you are,
(a)
The actual cost bears close relation to what we expected.
The actual cost is closely related to what we expected.
The actual cost bears is closely relevant to what we expected.
There is a close relationship between the actual cost and what we expected.

The third one is clearly wrong. A cost cannot be relevant to the expected cost. And "bears is closely relevant" has no meaning.
The other three are grammatical, but none of them are very good. The actual cost was close to the expected/estimated cost. This is actually what the person is trying to say.
The actual cost bears close relation to what we expected to be. (Is it better?)
--The sales performance is related to employee's working attitude.
--The sales performance is relevant to employee's working attitude.
--There's a close relation between sales performance and employee's working attitude. ( I used 'relation' instead of 'relationship' in this case because I think the former is dealt with more abstract idea such as performance and attitude, whereas relationship is used in a more human relation way, is that right?)

Besides, I think it's not proper to say "The sales performance is close to employee's working attitude."

That's all by now. My class starts within 1 minute. Have to split now. More later.

Dear Mike,
If you get some time, don't forget this one, and my following reply.
8) :lol:
 

Francois

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 15, 2004
I don't quite get it by your meaning 'in this case.'
How about in this case?
The relation between Iraq and USA is tight.
The relationship between Iraq and USA is tight.
The 2nd sentence is correct.

And this?
The relation between the war at Iraq and the price of pretrolium is obviously close.
The relationship between the war at Iraq and the price of pretrolium is obviously close.
As I analysed before, I'd use 'relation' in this case because 'war' and 'price' are not concrete idea for me.
Correct. The first sentence is fine by me.

FRC
 

Francois

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 15, 2004
The actual cost bears close relation to what we expected to be. (Is it better?)
Hmmm. I don't think you can use 'relation' in that case. Mike's "The actual cost was close to the expected/estimated cost" is clearly better.

--The sales performance is related to employee's working attitude.
OK
--The sales performance is relevant to employee's working attitude.
Wrong. Somthing cannot be relevant to someone's attitude.
--There's a close relation between sales performance and employee's working attitude. ( I used 'relation' instead of 'relationship' in this case because I think the former is dealt with more abstract idea such as performance and attitude, whereas relationship is used in a more human relation way, is that right?)
'relation' is uncountable if I'm correct. So I would use 'relationship' here.

Besides, I think it's not proper to say "The sales performance is close to employee's working attitude."
I agree.

FRC
 

blacknomi

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Student or Learner
Francois said:
I don't quite get it by your meaning 'in this case.'
How about in this case?
The relation between Iraq and USA is tight.
The relationship between Iraq and USA is tight.
The 2nd sentence is correct.

And this?
The relation between the war at Iraq and the price of pretrolium is obviously close.
The relationship between the war at Iraq and the price of pretrolium is obviously close.
As I analysed before, I'd use 'relation' in this case because 'war' and 'price' are not concrete idea for me.
Correct. The first sentence is fine by me.

FRC


Your first answer has contradicted the latter one. I am even more confused.
 

blacknomi

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Student or Learner
Francois said:
--The sales performance is related to employee's working attitude.

OK

--The sales performance is relevant to employee's working attitude.

Wrong. Somthing cannot be relevant to someone's attitude.
I don't get this one. Could you provide me with more examples with 'be related to' and 'be relevant to'? I want to figure it out by myself. ( hope it's not a wishful thinking.)


Francois said:
--There's a close relation between sales performance and employee's working attitude. ( I used 'relation' instead of 'relationship' in this case because I think the former is dealt with more abstract idea such as performance and attitude, whereas relationship is used in a more human relation way, is that right?)

'relation' is uncountable if I'm correct. So I would use 'relationship' here.

Hm...not my native language. No idea either. I do see "relations" in some my books. And if your memory is right, I'm afraid it doesn't seem logical to me that if "relations" is wrong, than use "relationship". :wink:
 

Francois

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 15, 2004
Your first answer has contradicted the latter one. I am even more confused
I don't see why they contradict themselves. Could a teacher sort that out?

I don't get this one. Could you provide me with more examples with 'be related to' and 'be relevant to'? I want to figure it out by myself. ( hope it's not a wishful thinking.)
"His results are related to his unflagging motivation"
"Those figures are not relevant to our discussion"
"Whether you had an unhappy childhood or not is not is not relevant to our verdict"

I do see "relations" in some my books
Yes, when it refers to persons ("friends and relations").

And if your memory is right, I'm afraid it doesn't seem logical to me that if "relations" is wrong, than use "relationship".
Well, in this case it's clearly one or the other, right?

FRC
 

MikeNewYork

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blacknomi said:
blacknomi said:
MikeNewYork said:
blacknomi said:
Here you are,
(a)
The actual cost bears close relation to what we expected.
The actual cost is closely related to what we expected.
The actual cost bears is closely relevant to what we expected.
There is a close relationship between the actual cost and what we expected.

The third one is clearly wrong. A cost cannot be relevant to the expected cost. And "bears is closely relevant" has no meaning.
The other three are grammatical, but none of them are very good. The actual cost was close to the expected/estimated cost. This is actually what the person is trying to say.

The actual cost bears close relation to what we expected to be. (Is it better?)
--The sales performance is related to employee's working attitude.
--The sales performance is relevant to employee's working attitude.
-

Not a whole lot better. It is simpler and more accurate to say that the actual cost is close to what we expected it to be or estimated. I don't see a need for "bears close relation" there.

Of the next two, I would choose the first. The performance is affectd by and related to the attitude. Relevant would mean that it had meaning for the attitude.

-There's a close relation between sales performance and employee's working attitude. ( I used 'relation' instead of 'relationship' in this case because I think the former is dealt with more abstract idea such as performance and attitude, whereas relationship is used in a more human relation way, is that right?)

Besides, I think it's not proper to say "The sales performance is close to employee's working attitude."

One could use either one in the sales sentence.

It would not be correct to use "close to" in that context.
 

blacknomi

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Student or Learner
blacknomi said:
Francois said:
I don't quite get it by your meaning 'in this case.'
How about in this case?
The relation between Iraq and USA is tight.
The relationship between Iraq and USA is tight.
The 2nd sentence is correct.

And this?
The relation between the war at Iraq and the price of pretrolium is obviously close.
The relationship between the war at Iraq and the price of pretrolium is obviously close.
As I analysed before, I'd use 'relation' in this case because 'war' and 'price' are not concrete idea for me.
Correct. The first sentence is fine by me.

FRC


Your first answer has contradicted the latter one. I am even more confused.

Question 1
I assume the following examples are correct.
The relation between Iraq and USA is tight. (incorrect, why? I heard BBC news today, one of the journalist said so.) :?:
The relationship between Iraq and USA is tight. (correct)

How about this one?
==>The relation between two countries is tight.
==>The relationship between two countries is tight.



Question 2
The relation between the war at Iraq and the price of pretrolium is obviously close. (correct)
The relationship between the war at Iraq and the price of pretrolium is obviously close. (incorrect, why?)



These examples above, can I swap either one of them?
 

Francois

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Joined
Jun 15, 2004
My understanding is that 'relation' is more of a concept, while '"relationship' is an instance of that concept. Eg. a relationship can be ended. That's what I meant with the 'uncountable' point.
Am I wide of the mark?

The relation between Iraq and USA is tight. (incorrect, why? I heard BBC news today, one of the journalist said so.)
The relationship between Iraq and USA is tight. (correct)
I would use 'relationship' b/c the 'link' is pretty concrete here. Again, the 'relationship' between Iraq and the USA can be ended.

How about this one?
==>The relation between two countries is tight.
==>The relationship between two countries is tight.
Again, I would use 'relationship'.

The relation between the war at Iraq and the price of pretrolium is obviously close. (correct)
The relationship between the war at Iraq and the price of pretrolium is obviously close. (incorrect, why?)
Here, what is really of interest to us is the fact that there's a relation between the war and the price of petroleum. I wouldn't say that it can be ended, threatened or whatever (whereas we could say that about a 'relationship').

FRC
 

henry

Member
Joined
Mar 7, 2004
Let me try now!

<1>"The relation between two countries is tight" should here mean that the connection ( business connections etc.,) Iraq and USA is tight.

<2>"The relationship between Iraq and USA is tight" would mean that the the way in which they feel and behave towards each other is
'tight.'

relation (from Cambr.):
(1) the connection or similarity between two things
(2) a member of your family

relationship( from Cambr.):
(1) the way in which two things are connected
(2)the way in which two or more people feel and behave towards each other
(3)a close romantic friendship between two people, which is often sexual
(4)the family connection between people

There is also relations (plural) which means the way in which two or more people feel and behave towards each other

:wink:

P.S Hope others'll have their comments, too.
 
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