scope of negation

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navi tasan

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Can one say:
1-I don't like him as much as you.

istead of:

2-I dislike him as much as you do.
 

twostep

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navi tasan said:
Can one say:
1-I don't like him as much as you.

istead of:

2-I dislike him as much as you do.

I am not a teacher.

1 = you like him but I do not
2 = you do not like him and I do not like him at all
 

Francois

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I don't like him as much as you
This is ambiguous. My understanding would be that you like both of us but you prefer me. This can also mean you like him but I like him even more (the trailing 'do' is omitted then => 'as much as you do').
But from your question I believe you meant you and I don't like him.
I would stick to your 2nd sentence.

FRC
 

navi tasan

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Both sentences are correct.
The first sentence could be ambiguous, but that does by no means mean it is wrong.

1-I don't like him as much as you.

First meaning: I like you more than I like him.
Second meaning: I don't like him as much as you like him.

Now the question was, could the first sentence be used instead of:
2-I don't like him as much as you don't like him.
 

blacknomi

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1-a. She doesn't sing as well as me.
1-b. She doesn't sing as well as I do.

In 1-a, an object pronoun is used after 'as', it is an informal style, whereas in 1-b, subject+verb is used after 'as', it is more formal.


As you can see, in your example #2
#2. I don't like him as much as you.
2-a. I don't like him as much as you do. ( 'you' is a subject)
2-b. I don't like him as much as you. ('you' is an object pronoun)

2-a and 2-b are possible variants of #2. Have you noticed that we have a subject 'you' and an object 'you'?


In 2-a, both of us like him, but I like him less and you like him more. Ambuguity is cleared out in 2-a because 'you' is a subject.
What are the two equal things you compare now?
1. I don't like him. (subject)
2. You don't like him. (subject)



In 2-b, I don't think it's usual to regard 'you' as a subject. For example, I don't like him as much as she. In this sentence, it is ungrammatical. You either say I don't like him as much as her or I don't like him as much as she does. So I don't think 2-b is that ambiguous. It means I like you more than I like him. 'You' is for sure an object of the main verb 'like'.
What are the two equal things you compare now?
1. I like him. (object)
2. I like you. (object)


This is your question,
I don't like him as much as you don't like him. :?:
==> I think this sentence is gramatically strange. 'As + Adj/Adv + as' is used to compare two equal things. Here in your sentence, you compare the feeling of 'like him'.

I don't [like him as much as you like him.]
==>'don't' negates the idea in my brackets. Is this the negation scope you need? Therefore, we apply 'pro-verb' substitution to the latter 'like him', and then it generates a new variants,
I don't [like him as much as you do.]

So the latter 'like him' is within negation scope, I think there is no need to negate the latter 'like him' again.


What do you think?

:wink:
 

twostep

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blacknomi said:
1-a. She doesn't sing as well as me.
1-b. She doesn't sing as well as I do.

In 1-a, an object pronoun is used after 'as', it is an informal style, whereas in 1-b, subject+verb is used after 'as', it is more formal.


As you can see, in your example #2
#2. I don't like him as much as you.
2-a. I don't like him as much as you do. ( 'you' is a subject)
2-b. I don't like him as much as you. ('you' is an object pronoun)

2-a and 2-b are possible variants of #2. Have you noticed that we have a subject 'you' and an object 'you'?


In 2-a, both of us like him, but I like him less and I like you more. Ambuguity is cleared out in 2-a.
In 2-b, I don't think it's usual to regard 'you' as a subject. For example, I don't like him as much as she. In this sentence, it is ungrammatical. You either say I don't like him as much as her or I don't like him as much as she does. So I don't think 2-b is that ambiguous. It means I like you more than him.

This is your question,
I don't like him as much as you don't like him. :?:
==> I think this sentence is gramatically strange. 'As + Adj/Adv + as' is used to compare two equal things. Here in your sentence, you compare the feeling of 'like him'.

I don't [like him as much as you like him.]
==>'don't' negates the idea in my brackets. Is this the negation scope you need? Therefore, we imply 'pro-verb' substitution to the latter 'like him', and then it generates a new variants,
I don't [like him as much as you do.]

So the latter 'like him' is within negation scope, I think there is no need to negate the latter 'like him' again.


What do you think?

:wink:
She doesn't sing as well as me. It does not sound right. She does not sing as well as I do?

Where is the cavalry today?
 

blacknomi

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Hi,

According Michael Swan, 'she doesn't sing as well as me' is used in an informal style. I do think you can omit 'do', but it may produce ambiguity. I was trying to analyze from different points. Let's wait for Mike sensei. :wink:
 

Francois

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blacknomi said:
Hi,

According Michael Swan, 'she doesn't sing as well as me' is used in a formal style. I do think you can omit 'do', but it may produce ambiguity. I was trying to analyze from different points. Let's wait for Mike sensei. :wink:
Doh - I would say it's informal on the contrary!
(according to Michael Swan, BTW).

Help!

FRC
 

blacknomi

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Francois said:
blacknomi said:
Hi,

According Michael Swan, 'she doesn't sing as well as me' is used in a formal style. I do think you can omit 'do', but it may produce ambiguity. I was trying to analyze from different points. Let's wait for Mike sensei. :wink:
Doh - I would say it's informal on the contrary!
(according to Michael Swan, BTW).

Help!

FRC

I do apologize for such a HUGE typo. Informal.
:oops: :oops: :oops: Please forgive. :D
 

navi tasan

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This is your question,
I don't like him as much as you don't like him. :?:
==> I think this sentence is gramatically strange. 'As + Adj/Adv + as' is used to compare two equal things. Here in your sentence, you compare the feeling of 'like him'.

Well, not really. I am not comparing "like him", but "not like him". If you read my original post, you'll see that I had replaced that by "dislike him".
I don't like him, just like you don't like him.
I don't like him, as you don't like him.
I don't like him (dislike him) as much as you don't like (dislike him) him.
I don't like him as much as you don't [like him].
I don't like him as much as you [don't like him].




I agree that it is strange and it is a roundabout way of saying what is to be said, but I am not sure it is wrong.
 

blacknomi

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Francois said:
I don't like him as much as she. In this sentence, it is ungrammatical.
I believe this one is formal, but correct.
Teachers?

FRC

strictly speaking, it's ungrammatical. It should be "I don't like him as much as she does."

'does' is omitted.
 

Francois

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Well, I think it is grammatically correct, but let's not start a fight, and wait for our dear teachers to sort that mess out :)

FRC
 

twostep

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Francois said:
Well, I think it is grammatically correct, but let's not start a fight, and wait for our dear teachers to sort that mess out :)

FRC

Diplomatic Corps 101 - as I said - where is the cavalry today?
 

blacknomi

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navi tasan said:
This is your question,
I don't like him as much as you don't like him. :?:
==> I think this sentence is gramatically strange. 'As + Adj/Adv + as' is used to compare two equal things. Here in your sentence, you compare the feeling of 'like him'.

Well, not really. I am not comparing "like him", but "not like him". If you read my original post, you'll see that I had replaced that by "dislike him".
I don't like him, just like you don't like him.
I don't like him, as you don't like him.
I don't like him (dislike him) as much as you don't like (dislike him) him.
I don't like him as much as you don't [like him].
I don't like him as much as you [don't like him].




I agree that it is strange and it is a roundabout way of saying what is to be said, but I am not sure it is wrong.


I don't like him.
You don't like him either.
==> 'don't' negates the feeling of 'like him'

In this sentecne,
I don't like him as much as you don't like him.
==> I'd use 'do' to replace the latter 'don't like him' to avoid repetition. "do" is an auxiliary, 'like' is the main verb in the sentence. So I would think you are comparing a spectrum of likeness, you can like him or dislike him.


Hm. We are not fighting, we are discussing!

When the cat's away! :)
 

navi tasan

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I agree. It would be better to let the teachers sort this out. This is getting too confusing for me.

I think it would be better if we started a new thread every time we had a new question. Giving answers instead of the teachers is probably not the best of things to do either, because we make the threads too long and they become difficult to follow for them. I don't know how much time it will take to read this one. I have almost forgotten what my question was!!
 

Francois

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The thread is not that long, and your question is at the top of it. It is common practice to let students answer their questions, so that they get to know each others and this can make for interesting discussions. If each thread were just 2 or 3 posts long with a question and its answer from a teacher, this forum would not be as interesting IMO.
But you've all rights to ask others not to hijack your threads, so I will avoid posting in them if you prefer -- no hard feelings.
Cheers,

FRC
 

navi tasan

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Thanks for your attitude François, c'est sympa. And there are no hard feelings, sans rancune. It was never a question of hard feelings actually. I just thought it would be better to have a greater number of short threads, so can we can follow each question more easily.
Peut-être pourrais-je te poser des questions concernant la grammaire française! Ca serait marrant, non?
(I am not talking behind anybody's back, just asking François if I could ask him questions concerning French grammar.)
 
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