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joham

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But these computers are so far untested.
But these computers have been untested so far.

Is there any difference between these two sentences? When should we use the present perfect tense with 'so far'?

Could I ask native English teachers to help me? Thank you very much.
 

David L.

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Yes. We could use the past tense, or present perfect. Your question really is, what meaning/information are we conveying to the listener that we would use one or the other? What context would we be using one or the other?

What meaning/what is implied when someone says:
"This electrical appliances are untested so far."

and when they phrase it:
"These electrical appliances have not been tested so far." ?

Anyone?
 
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engee30

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Yes. We could use the past tense, or present perfect. Your question really is, what meaning/information are we conveying to the listener that we would use one or the other? What context would we be using one or the other?

What meaning/what is implied when someone says:
"This electrical appliances are untested so far." conveying a sense of state

and when they phrase it:
"These electrical appliances have not been tested so far." conveying a sense of action

Anyone?

:cool:
 

David L.

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What I had in mind was, in what situation would a person say either of these? When I'm in a situation, I don't have to think and decide, hmm, shall I use present tense or present perfect here??? There is a situation and that situation already has meaning in it. Let me show you:

I know that the UK has strict regulations governing the safety of electrical appliances, and what can be sold as 'passed'.
I am overseas in some very small third world country, and see an electrical appliance for sale. I ask the very honest salesman whether it meets UK standards, and he says:
"These appliances are untested so far."
The meaning I gather from this is, that it is not tested and certified as meeting UK standards (so if I try to bring it back into the UK it may be rejected as 'unsafe' by customs; and if I manage to get it through, I may get electrocuted when I use it.)

I visit the building in the UK where the electricians work who test appliances being imported from overseas. One of the electricians points to an array of appliances which have all been rejected and will not be allowed as imports. He points to another table and says:

Electrician: "These appliances have not been tested so far."
The meaning I gather is, that testing is underway, and that they are in the process of testing a lot of appliances, some of which have been rejected, but haven't got round to these yet. They will be testing these later that day, next day, sometime soon to determine whether they do or do not pass.

Each of these two men chose an expression which was appropriate for the situation. That's the difference and how one decides!
 
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David L.

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So = let's change your original sentences, and others can have a go at applying it to them.
Let's say the situation is James Bond taking to Q, who is equipping James with some new gadgets. He points to a Gizmo and says:

1. This Gizmo is so far untested.

2. This Gizmo has not been tested so far.

What would the implication be for James after Q said (1) or if Q said (2)?
 

Offroad

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Good question, I am following up this thread.

So, could 'so far' has different meanings?

for example:
Mr Q talking to Agent 007:
- This Gizmo is so far untested.

A teacher talking to her/his students:
- The World War II was bla bla ..... Ok so far?


Thank you very much
 

David L.

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You are talking about the different meanings of 'so far' as in :

1 to a certain limited extent : the commitment to free trade goes only so far. 2 (of a trend that seems likely to continue) up to this time : we've only had one honest man so far.
( in) so far as = to the extent that : it was a windless storm so far as blizzards go.
so far, so good= progress has been satisfactory up to now : “How's the job going?” “So far, so good.”

The original post was about the use of 'so far' with present perfect tense; and that hinges on the meaning we want to get across with the tense. that's what I want to stick with for now.
 

Offroad

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The original post was about the use of 'so far' with present perfect tense; and that hinges on the meaning we want to get across with the tense. that's what I want to stick with for now.

Thanks David, but, one more question, about the original post, you're trying to exaplain the differences between

1) But these computers are so far untested.
2) But these computers have been untested so far

I've been following all your explanations up, and, If I don't misunderstood, the meaning is not affected by the "so far" position in those sentences, I mean, this has nothing to do with "so far" but with "TO BE" and "HAVE BEEN", Am I right?

These computers are untested
These computers have been untested.

Isn't "so far" just a intensifier? for example, strongly?

Many thanks
 

Uncle M

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'Untested' as an adjective is fine.

But 'this computer has been untested' is incorrect, since it's not possible to untest something.

So say instead 'this computer has not been tested'
 

Offroad

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Dave Mortimer, I didn't notice that mistake. Sorry.
So, what I'd like to know is whether "so far" is an intensifier in that sentence and it could be dropped, or, replaced by an adverb. By the way, is it an adverb?

thanks.
 

Uncle M

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I think I would describe it as an intensifier but I'm not really sure.

I reckon that 'so far untested' is an adjectival phrase describing the object.

Have to go now...!
 

David L.

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marciobarbalho: It is not an intensifier. It adds something specific, which is then important to the tense of the sentence. 'so far' means 'up to this point in time'.
'exhaustively' would be an intensifier, as in 'has been tested exhaustively'. To use an intensifier with 'untest' would be like saying, "He is very dead."

Dave:
untested
adjective
(of an idea, product, or person) not subjected to examination, experiment, or experience; unproven : "Analyses based on dubious and untested assumptions."

You're right. As such, 'untested' does not fit with either 'computer' or the 'appliances' as I went on to use in my example. Neither is an 'untested' commodity. We know exactly what they will do and what not. With the appliances, it is not their function that is under scrutiny, but their safe functioning. I left the meaning of 'untested' uncommented upon while I concentrated on tense, and the meaning of 'so far' with present, versus present perfect... which so far seems to be getting lost in it all!!!!!!
 
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