such as

[navi tasan]

Is there any difference between:

1-Great men, such as A, B and C, always woke up late.
2-Great men such as A, B and C, always woke up late.
3-Such great men as A, B and C always woke up late.

It seems to me that in the first sentence, A, B and C are merely examples of great men, while in 2 and 3, they define a type of great man (not all great men, but the ones who were like A, B and C).

 

[Tdol]

I don't like the comma in 2. I agree with your distinction for 1&3, though.;-)

 

[navi tasan]

Thanks again,
Which comma in 2 don't you like? I suppose it's the comma after C.
How about:
2a-"Great men such as A, B and C always woke up late."
Would you class it with 1 or 3? (example or definig a type?)

 

[MikeNewYork]

Thanks again,
Which comma in 2 don't you like? I suppose it's the comma after C.
How about:
2a-"Great men such as A, B and C always woke up late."
Would you class it with 1 or 3? (example or definig a type?)

I don't like #2 with out the offsetting commas. I don't see any way to avoid the parenthetical nature of the "such as" phrase.

 

[navi tasan]

Thanks, but I am back where I started!

I thought "such as" could be used in two ways:
a-meaning "like"
b-meaning "for example"

A-Great men such as you and I wake up late.= That type of great man, the type to which we belong, a sub-category of the category "great men"

B-Great man, such as you and I, wake up late.=All great mean (you and I being examples of great men)

In other words, the way I see it, the equivalent of "Such great men as you and I wake up late." can't have offsetting commas and should be:
A.

Consider:
C-"Not all great men, but such great men as you and I, wake up late."

Have I got it, or ....

 

[Tdol]

Thanks again,
Which comma in 2 don't you like? I suppose it's the comma after C.
How about:
2a-"Great men such as A, B and C always woke up late."
Would you class it with 1 or 3? (example or definig a type?)

I don't like #2 with out the offsetting commas. I don't see any way to avoid the parenthetical nature of the "such as" phrase.

In that case, shouldn'tthere be two commas. I'd avoid #2. ;-)

 

[navi tasan]

What if I use "men" instead of "great men"? Would you use commas in that case?
1-Men such as you and I wake up late.
2-Men, such as you and I, wake up late.
To me it seems that in 1, we are talking about a special category of man, which includes us. In this context, 2 doesn't make much sense to me.

 

[MikeNewYork]

Thanks, but I am back where I started!

I thought "such as" could be used in two ways:
a-meaning "like"
b-meaning "for example"

A-Great men such as you and I wake up late.= That type of great man, the type to which we belong, a sub-category of the category "great men"

B-Great man, such as you and I, wake up late.=All great mean (you and I being examples of great men)

In other words, the way I see it, the equivalent of "Such great men as you and I wake up late." can't have offsetting commas and should be:
A.

Consider:
C-"Not all great men, but such great men as you and I, wake up late."

Have I got it, or ....

I don't agree exactly. "Such" can be used as "like" without commas, but I don't like it when you start with "great men". The two people don't define "great men"; they can only be examples.

Try this:

A boy such as yourself....
...would happen to two men such as us.
A great man such as John....

 

[MikeNewYork]

Thanks again,
Which comma in 2 don't you like? I suppose it's the comma after C.
How about:
2a-"Great men such as A, B and C always woke up late."
Would you class it with 1 or 3? (example or definig a type?)

I don't like #2 with out the offsetting commas. I don't see any way to avoid the parenthetical nature of the "such as" phrase.

In that case, shouldn'tthere be two commas. I'd avoid #2. ;-)

Yes. You're correct. :wink:

 

[navi tasan]

Thanks Mike.

This is becoming interesting, and confusing for me.

So, if I have understood correctly:
"A boy such as yourself.... "
"...would happen to two men such as us."
"A great man such as John...."
are OK, and in each case we have a type defined by the phrase which postmodifies the noun.

"A great man such as John..." is not citing John just as a great man, it is defining a sub-type of great man. Not all great men, but a great man who is like John...

Great men, such as you and I, ...
is OK too, you and I being examples of great men.

Now, how about:

Such great men as you and I...

is this equivalent to:
"Great men, such as you and I...
or is it defining a sub-type?

 

[MikeNewYork]

Thanks Mike.

This is becoming interesting, and confusing for me.

So, if I have understood correctly:
"A boy such as yourself.... "
"...would happen to two men such as us."
"A great man such as John...."
are OK, and in each case we have a type defined by the phrase which postmodifies the noun.

"A great man such as John..." is not citing John just as a great man, it is defining a sub-type of great man. Not all great men, but a great man who is like John...

Great men, such as you and I, ...
is OK too, you and I being examples of great men.

Now, how about:

Such great men as you and I...

is this equivalent to:
"Great men, such as you and I...
or is it defining a sub-type?

There is a problem with "such great men". In that construction, "such" wants to be an adverb, modifying "great". One can use "such" diresctly before a noun without that confusion.

such (sŭch)
adj.

Of this kind: a single parent, one of many such people in the neighborhood.
Of a kind specified or implied: a boy such as yourself.

Of a degree or quality indicated: Their anxiety was such that they could not sleep.
Of so extreme a degree or quality: never dreamed of such wealth.
adv.
To so extreme a degree; so: such beautiful flowers; such a funny character.
Very; especially: She has been in such poor health lately.