[General] They are no longer the same

[Anil Giria]

1. They are no longer the same Iranians that came to us last year for signing the deal.

2. There are no longer the same Iranians that came to us last year to sign the deal.

I want to understand that why in 1st sentence " signing" is gerund whereas in 2nd sentence the same is used as Noun. Does it because of change in preposition? I understand that if we use any verb after preposition it would be gerund only.

 

[Roman55]

I am not a teacher.


Do you mean that they are not the same Iranians that came last year? 'They are no longer the same Iranians…' doesn't make sense.


Sentence 1. is not grammatical.


'To sign the deal' is correct.

 

[MikeNewYork]

In my opinion, both of your sentences are correct. In the first, "signing" is a gerund noun that functions as the object of the preposition "for". In the second, "to sign" is an infinitive. It introduces an infinitive phrase that acts as an adverb modifying the verb "came".

 

[Anil Giria]

Originally posted by MikeNew York:
In my opinion, both of your sentences are correct. In the first, "signing" is a gerund noun that functions as the object of the preposition "for". In the second, "to sign" is an infinitive. It introduces an infinitive phrase that acts as an adverb modifying the verb "came".

Does it means that "to" is not preposition here? My doubt is: After preposition if we use verb it must be gerund noun then in case of "to sign" why this has not been followed. Please clarify

 

[MikeNewYork]

With an infinitive, "to" is a particle. It acts as an infinitive marker. It is unfortunate that is the same word as the preposition.

 

[Anil Giria]

Thank you very much for your reply. It helped me clear my doubt.

Just to understand further the "infinitive phrase":

He wants to swim.

1)"To swim" is infinitive phrase and swim is verb but since we have added "to" so it becomes infinitive phrase. Am I correct ?
2) "To swim" is object of the "wants". In abiove sentence "to sign" was adverb of came. Here what part of speech "to swim" is?

 

[MikeNewYork]

Technically, "to swim" is not an infinitive phrase. It is an infinitive. Both words add up to an infinitive. An infinitive phrase has other words, such as "to swim the English Channel". In that case, "the English Channel" is the object of the infinitive "to swim". In your sentence "to swim" is an infinitive acting as a noun. It is the object of the verb "wants".

 

[emsr2d2]

I still don't understand "They are no longer the same Iranians". Do you mean that they are the same people but their personalities have changed beyond all recognition or do you mean that they are actually different people?

 

[Anil Giria]

They are same Iranians but their perception got change as compared to last year.

 

[Matthew Wai]

May I say that 'They are no longer Iranians with the same perception'?

 

[emsr2d2]

No. That doesn't work, Matthew Wai.

Actually, now that it's been clarified, the original sentence is OK but it would necessitate the listener understanding that that was what was meant. It's a perfectly acceptable way of saying that someone's character or personality has changed.

I am fairly certain that I remember saying to someone a few years ago something along the lines of "I'm not the same person who moved to Madrid", meaning that moving to Madrid had changed me!

 

[Anil Giria]

"to swim the English Channel"

Does "to swim is also acting as noun in the above sentence?

 

[Matthew Wai]

I think you should provide the complete sentence, but I am not a teacher.

 

[Anil Giria]

2. There are no longer the same Iranians that came to us last year to sign the deal.

In the above sentence "to sign" an infinitive phrase that acts as an adverb modifying the verb "came".

I want to understand why "to sign" is an adverb. I understand as a layman that " to sign" is an action and action is always verb.

 

[Matthew Wai]

I understand as a layman that " to sign" is an action and action is always verb.

A member said in another thread that 'an infinitive is not a verb'. This member has forbidden me to quote his old posts, so I cannot post the link here.

Not a teacher.

 

[MikeNewYork]

You are correct, Matthew. An infinitive is not a verb; it is a verbal. Even though it is derived from a verb, it functions as a noun, adverb, or adjective. As a verbal, it retains certain features of a verb, including the action part, the ability to take a direct object, and the ability to be modified by an adverb.

 

[Anil Giria]

He wants to swim the English Channel"

Does "to swim the enlish channel" is acting as noun in the above sentence?

 

[Matthew Wai]

MikeNewYork already told you in post#7 that '"to swim" is an infinitive acting as a noun. It is the object of the verb "wants".'

But I think 'to swim' acts as an adjective below.
'He is the person to swim the English Channel.'

Not a teacher.