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Taka

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The sentence:

There is deep suspicion that government is the natural enemy of freedom, even if it is elected by the people.

Is "even if it is elected by the people." excluded from the "that-clause" above, or is it included?

Taka
 

Tdol

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I think it's included:

Government is the natural enemy of freedom, even if it is elected by the people.

This seems to work- it's just including elected governments in the enemy category before democrats start moaning. Elected governments are a subset of the enemy group.;-)
 

Taka

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tdol said:
I think it's included:

Government is the natural enemy of freedom, even if it is elected by the people.

This seems to work- it's just including elected governments in the enemy category before democrats start moaning. Elected governments are a subset of the enemy group.;-)

Thank you, tdol!

Is it possible to generalize that if there is a "....that (a), conj (b)" construction, conj (b) is always included in the "that-clause"? Or, do you think it depends on the content?
 

Tdol

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Off-hand, I'd probably say we could, but I'm sure there will be many examples where it doesn't follow. I'll try to think of some.;-)
 

Taka

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tdol said:
I'll try to think of some.;-)

OK. I'll be waiting for the examples to come.

Thanks.
 

Taka

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How are your examples coming, tdol?
 

Tdol

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It's exam season here and they're not. I'll try to get some time tonight. ;-)
 

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Taka said:
The sentence:

There is deep suspicion that government is the natural enemy of freedom, even if it is elected by the people.

Is "even if it is elected by the people." excluded from the "that-clause" above, or is it included?

Taka

I agree with TDOL. In this case, the "even" statement is part of the noun clause.

It doesn't always follow though.

I have a deep suspicion that government is the natural enemy of freedom, even if others disagree with me.

In that sentence, the "even" clause is part of the main clause.

Or at least that's how I see it. :wink:
 

Tdol

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Good example, Mike. ;-)
 

Taka

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Long time, no see, Mike! How (and where) have you been?

(Perhaps this person would be glad to hear from you:https://www.usingenglish.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5163&highlight=mike)

OK, what about this one?:

I lean toward the idea that wisdom comes with age, which you can bet no one young ever says or thinks. The truth is that a person of seventy is a totally different person than a person of twenty ,and a comparison or their intellect is impractical.

Can I apply the same rule as you and tdol mentioned above?; in "...that (a), and (b)", is ",and (b)" usually included in the noun clause?

If there is no comma inserted before "and", I won't get confused at all. But whenever there is a comma before "and" in such cases, I get confused quite often...
 

Tdol

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I use a comma before 'and' when I feel that the and clause is less important than the rest of the sentence. Here, I'd use it because it's seems to be an additional comment.

PS- I'm not sure that I get this:
"...that (a), and (b)", is ",and (b)"
;-)
 

Taka

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tdol said:
PS- I'm not sure that I get this:
"...that (a), and (b)", is ",and (b)"
;-)

I meant to say " if there is a "...that (a), and (b)" construction, is ",and (b)" included in the "that-clause?".

"And" is a conjunction, right? So I'm wondering if the "that-clause" includes not only (a), but also the ",and-(b)" part, in the same way as it includes ",even if (b)".

By the way, I don't really understand this part of your comments: "the and clause is less important".
 

Tdol

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If the aprt of the sentence after the conjunction is less important than the other part, then I use a comma.;-)
 

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Taka said:
Long time, no see, Mike! How (and where) have you been?

(Perhaps this person would be glad to hear from you:https://www.usingenglish.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5163&highlight=mike)

OK, what about this one?:

I lean toward the idea that wisdom comes with age, which you can bet no one young ever says or thinks. The truth is that a person of seventy is a totally different person than a person of twenty ,and a comparison or their intellect is impractical.

Can I apply the same rule as you and tdol mentioned above?; in "...that (a), and (b)", is ",and (b)" usually included in the noun clause?

If there is no comma inserted before "and", I won't get confused at all. But whenever there is a comma before "and" in such cases, I get confused quite often...

I'm not sure I signed on to that rule. In this case, the comma is needed because one has two independent clauses joined by a coordinating conjunction. The sense of that sentence is that the final clause is part of the "truth", so I would say it is part of the noun clause that explains what the "truth" is.
 

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Taka

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MikeNewYork said:
Taka said:
Long time, no see, Mike! How (and where) have you been?

(Perhaps this person would be glad to hear from you:https://www.usingenglish.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5163&highlight=mike)

I responded to Jiang. I must say that I was deeply touched by the messages that I received from members of this forum. You guys are great.

There will be times when I am absent for a few days. Duty calls! :shock:

You are a very busy man here as a teacher and there as a vet, which I think is the indication that everybody loves you!
 

Taka

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MikeNewYork said:
I'm not sure I signed on to that rule. In this case, the comma is needed because one has two independent clauses joined by a coordinating conjunction. The sense of that sentence is that the final clause is part of the "truth", so I would say it is part of the noun clause that explains what the "truth" is.

Although you are not sure that you agreed on the rule, I think your interpretation is based on it: ",and a comparison or their intellect is impractical" is part of the noun clause that explains what the truth is.

Now, could you please show me an example, which shows the case where ",and (b)"-part is excluded in "...that (a), and (b)"?

I love your smart examples.
 

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Taka said:
MikeNewYork said:
Taka said:
Long time, no see, Mike! How (and where) have you been?

(Perhaps this person would be glad to hear from you:https://www.usingenglish.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5163&highlight=mike)

I responded to Jiang. I must say that I was deeply touched by the messages that I received from members of this forum. You guys are great.

There will be times when I am absent for a few days. Duty calls! :shock:

You are a very busy man here as a teacher and there as a vet, which I think is the indication that everybody loves you!

There is an old saying:

If you want something done, give it to a busy man. +|;-)

I prefer Newton's version: Bodies in motion tend to stay in motion; bodies at rest tend to stay at rest. :lol:
 

MikeNewYork

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Taka said:
MikeNewYork said:
I'm not sure I signed on to that rule. In this case, the comma is needed because one has two independent clauses joined by a coordinating conjunction. The sense of that sentence is that the final clause is part of the "truth", so I would say it is part of the noun clause that explains what the "truth" is.

Although you are not sure that you agreed on the rule, I think your interpretation is based on it: ",and a comparison or their intellect is impractical" is part of the noun clause that explains what the truth is.

Now, could you please show me an example, which shows the case where ",and (b)"-part is excluded in "...that (a), and (b)"?

I love your smart examples.

Clauses can attach themselves (or not) to just about anything dedending on the logic of a sentence.

The truth is that I was home alone on Saturday night, and I hope you believe that.

In this case, the final clause is not part of the noun clause. It is a separate thought. :wink:
 
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