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Taka

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Thank you for the clear example again, Mike.

(case a: ",conj (b)" included)
There is deep suspicion that government is the natural enemy of freedom, even if it is elected by the people.

The truth is that a person of seventy is a totally different person than a person of twenty ,and a comparison or their intellect is impractical.


(case b: ",conj (b)" excluded)
I have a deep suspicion that government is the natural enemy of freedom, even if others disagree with me.

The truth is that I was home alone on Saturday night, and I hope you believe that.


Now, which case is more common, "case a" or "case b"?

When I asked tdol:
Taka said:
Is it possible to generalize that if there is a "....that (a), conj (b)" construction, conj (b) is always included in the "that-clause"? Or, do you think it depends on the content?

then he said:
tdol said:
Off-hand, I'd probably say we could,

So I thought "case a" was more usual. But it seems like you are saying that "case a" and "case b" would equally appear in English, depending on the content.
 

Casiopea

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There is deep suspicion that government, even if it is elected by the people, is the natural enemy of freedom.

All the best, :D
 

MikeNewYork

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Taka said:
Thank you for the clear example again, Mike.

(case a: ",conj (b)" included)
There is deep suspicion that government is the natural enemy of freedom, even if it is elected by the people.

The truth is that a person of seventy is a totally different person than a person of twenty ,and a comparison or their intellect is impractical.


(case b: ",conj (b)" excluded)
I have a deep suspicion that government is the natural enemy of freedom, even if others disagree with me.

The truth is that I was home alone on Saturday night, and I hope you believe that.


Now, which case is more common, "case a" or "case b"?

When I asked tdol:
Taka said:
Is it possible to generalize that if there is a "....that (a), conj (b)" construction, conj (b) is always included in the "that-clause"? Or, do you think it depends on the content?

then he said:
tdol said:
Off-hand, I'd probably say we could,

So I thought "case a" was more usual. But it seems like you are saying that "case a" and "case b" would equally appear in English, depending on the content.

I don't think I can give you statistics on frequency. My guess is that the "included" form is more common, simply because one would have a tendency to end the thought when one reaches the end of the noun clause -- wherever that end occurs. :wink:
 

Taka

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MikeNewYork said:
I don't think I can give you statistics on frequency. My guess is that the "included" form is more common, simply because one would have a tendency to end the thought when one reaches the end of the noun clause -- wherever that end occurs.

I learned here in Japan that a comma is usually put to end the thought and to start new thought. Is it not necessary true?
 

Tdol

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It could be true, but there will be plenty of cases where it is not true.
 

MikeNewYork

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Taka said:
MikeNewYork said:
I don't think I can give you statistics on frequency. My guess is that the "included" form is more common, simply because one would have a tendency to end the thought when one reaches the end of the noun clause -- wherever that end occurs.

I learned here in Japan that a comma is usually put to end the thought and to start new thought. Is it not necessary true?

Commas are used for many things. Sometimes, they indicate a natural or obligatory pause. At other times, they are there for purely grammatical reasons. One could say that a compound sentence (with two independent clauses) is two thoughts, but one could also see it as one thought with two pieces.
 

Taka

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tdol said:
It could be true, but there will be plenty of cases where it is not true.

MikeNewYork said:
Commas are used for many things. Sometimes, they indicate a natural or obligatory pause. At other times, they are there for purely grammatical reasons. One could say that a compound sentence (with two independent clauses) is two thoughts, but one could also see it as one thought with two pieces.

OK. I understand.

Thank you, teachears! I really enjoy learning English here!
 

MikeNewYork

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Taka said:
tdol said:
It could be true, but there will be plenty of cases where it is not true.

MikeNewYork said:
Commas are used for many things. Sometimes, they indicate a natural or obligatory pause. At other times, they are there for purely grammatical reasons. One could say that a compound sentence (with two independent clauses) is two thoughts, but one could also see it as one thought with two pieces.

OK. I understand.

Thank you, teachears! I really enjoy learning English here!

Not half as much as we enjoy your questions. :D
 

Tdol

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You do ask very interesting questions. Thanks. ;-)
 
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