We <were preparing> <prepared> to rob the bank there until you got involved in all that nonsense.

[Barque]

I also sometimes think it isn't a good thing that adult learners nowadays seem to spend so much time learning technical aspects of grammar. I don't know that it's useful.

All languages have to be learnt by feel.

I don't know what "telic" means and what a first conditional is and I always look it up on the internet before I comment on things like "past perfect" and "present continuous". But I can tell what's grammatical, what's natural, and what's not.

What are you aiming for, Michael? To be able to speak English well, or to be able to discuss grammar principles knowledgeably?

The first can lead to the second. The other way round won't always work.

 

[jutfrank]

Another thing that might be confusing you is that Jutfrank and I are possibly not completely agreed on what sentences work and what don't. That sort of thing is common.

I really don't think we disagree on anything important, but we might have different ideas of what 'doesn't work' means, which could be potentially confusing.

 

[5jj]

There is also the point that the 'rules' about tenses and aspects that you'll find in modern grammar books are attempts by grammarians to note from their observations the way most native speakers (particularly of BrE and/or AmE) use tenses and aspects most of the time. And, except in carefully prepared writing (including notes for formal speeches), most of us native speakers use particular tenses and aspects without thinking about them. I don't know about AmE, but few native speakers could name more than two or three tenses or aspects. or be able to explain how they are normally used.

One further point is many many non-native teachers do not have the personal knowledge of using the language. They teach what they have been taught by other non-native teachers. I have enormous respect for such non-native academic writers such as Chrisophersen, Declerck, Jespersen, Kruisinga, Poutsma, Sandved,svartvik, Zandvoort and others all of whom have a greater understanding of how English works than most native speakers, who have helped us increase our understanding of English.

I also respect the thousands of non-native-speaking teachers who do a wonderful job of teaching English all over the world. However, most of this last group are not really qualified to pass judgement on the acceptability of what native speakers say and write.

 

[Michaelll]

You've misread my post. I have not said anything different from earlier.

What are you talking about? I didn't say they're fine.

Looks like you didn't actually read my #33. You didn't say that, Jutfrank did in #34.

"Fixed" doesn't work with "until".
"Cooked dinner" doesn't work with "until".

I agree.

but in language in use, not necessarily so. It depends on context and interpretation.

Yes, grammatical aspect is important, but so is lexical aspect, and the context, and your prior understanding of how the world works.

Michael, read these statements again and again

I can reread these statements thousands of times. But what difference would it make if you say those two don't work, while Jutfrank says they're 'not wrong'? Two opposing statements, and you don't even seem to be willing to admit it.

I still haven't received the answer I've been looking for. If the idea has to be translated into English, should I use the past simple or the past continuous in them? Quite simple.

I fixed my car until 5 a.m. (should I use the past continuous here?)
I cooked dinner till you came home. (should I use the past continuous here?)
Sally wrote a report until she fell asleep. (should I use the past continuous here?)
She built her house until March 2018. Then she decided to sell it. (should I use the past continuous here?)

There are some things that will take time to learn.

Sorry, but looks like you've completely misunderstood me. Please, please, reread #28 . So that you can fully understand what it is I'm asking about. Most Russian speaking teachers of English who have spent all their lifetime learning and teaching English still say that those signal words 1) "from ... to/till ...", 2) "until", 3) "while" (two simultaneous actions, not contrast)" and 4) "for [an amount of time]" (while expressing the duration of the actual action "It rained for two days", not the duration of the result of the action "He got banned for two years") require the past continuous. The amount of time spent on learning English won't make a difference, we just think in a different way.

 

[5jj]

Most Russian speaking teachers of English who have spent all their lifetime learning and teaching English still say that those signal words 1) "from ... to/till ...", 2) "until", 3) "while" (two simultaneous actions, not contrast)" and 4) "for [an amount of time]" (while expressing the duration of the actual action "It rained for two days", not the duration of the result of the action "He got banned for two years") require the past continuous.

Either you have misunderstood them, or most Russian speaking teachers of English who have spent all their lifetime learning and teaching English are mistaken. Those 'signal word do not require the past continuous.

 

[Michaelll]

Those signal word do not require the past continuous.

With certain verb phrases (e.g. 'read a book until', 'played tennis until', 'walked in the park until' etc.), right? With some others (e.g. 'fixed was fixing my car until', 'cooked was cooking dinner until') we would need the past continuous, right?

 

[5jj]

So you think I cooked dinner while Lindsay repaired the table is incorrect? It's not.

 

[Michaelll]

So you think I cooked dinner while Lindsay repaired the table is incorrect? It's not.

Finally, some answer! Thank you very much!

I think in this case with 'while', 'I' actually cooked dinner, while Lindsay actually repaired the table. (= the table was repaired and the dinner was cooked)

But, I think, in my humble opinion, with 'until' the situation is different. Otherwise why use 'until' when there's 'before', right?

I fixed my car while she worked in the garden. (because I actually fixed my car)
I fixed my car until 5 a.m.
I was fixing my car until 5 a.m.
I fixed my car before 5 a.m.

 

[5jj]

Finally, some answer!

Members have responded to many questions you have posted!

You appear to have missed the point that something to seemed to believe was mistaken.

I fixed my car until 5 a.m.
I was fixing my car until 5 a.m.

The first of those two sentences is no more impossible that John in the garage. He is fixing his car. 'Fix' does not necessarily mean 'complete the fixing of'.

 

[Barque]

Looks like you didn't actually read my #33. You didn't say that,

You quoted me in #36. That's what I was replying to.

 

[Michaelll]

The first of those two sentences is no more impossible that John in the garage. He is fixing his car. 'Fix' does not necessarily mean 'complete the fixing of'.

Sorry, I didn't get it at all. "He's fixing his car" of course doesn't tell us anything about completion because the sentence is in the continuous aspect. "Is no more impossible", what do you mean here? If you mean that the sentence "I fixed my car until 5 a.m." is fine, then, I'm confused, because of these:

"Fixed" doesn't work with "until".
"Cooked dinner" doesn't work with "until".

The word "fixed" carries a connotation of completeness.

Since the speaker has used the word until, the most likely interpretation is an atelic one.

Remember that not all action verbs can have both telic/atelic aspect.

I would agree with Barque that "I fixed my car until 5 a.m." doesn't work because as he said the word 'fixed' carries a connotation of completeness and as Jutfrank said not all action verbs can have atelic aspect (these statements make a lot of sense to). But:

'Fix' does not necessarily mean 'complete the fixing of'.

So far, I have no idea what is going on here.

Maybe, you meant 'fix' doesn't necessarily mean 'complete the fixing of' in the continuous aspect? If so, I completely understand it.

 

[5jj]

Maybe, you meant 'fix' doesn't necessarily mean 'complete the fixing of' in the continuous aspect? If so, I completely understand it

I was speaking about I fixed my car until 5 a.m, and noted that it was not impossible.