What does this mean?

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Anonymous

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The sentence:

Lectures on videotape, on audiotape and--if delivered form detailed, antique notes--even in the lecture hall, come closer to the way knowledge is stored in books or on the Internet than to the manner in which it can be created and obtained through open questions and collaboration.

Question:

What does "detailed, antique notes" mean here??

Taka
 

Casiopea

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Taka said:
The sentence:

Lectures on videotape, on audiotape and--if delivered form detailed, antique notes--even in the lecture hall, come closer to the way knowledge is stored in books or on the Internet than to the manner in which it can be created and obtained through open questions and collaboration.

Question:

What does "detailed, antique notes" mean here??

Taka

detailed = containing many details (particulars)
notes = notation, writing
antique = very old (Some teachers/professors lecture using the same notes they used 20 years ago! Now those are very old notes!)

All the best,
 

Taka

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Thanks for the responce, Casiopea.

You wrote:

detailed = containing many details (particulars)
notes = notation, writing
antique = very old (Some teachers/professors lecture using the same notes they used 20 years ago! Now those are very old notes!)


Actually, that's what I also thought at first.

But if the interpretaion is correct, why do you think the "detailed, antique notes" are only for "lectures in the lecture hall", not for those on vidotape or audiotape?

I would like your comments on this point.
 

Casiopea

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Taka said:
.... why do you think the "detailed, antique notes" are only for "lectures in the lecture hall", not for those on vidotape or audiotape?

I would like your comments on this point.

"Lectures on videotape, on audiotape and--if delivered form detailed, antique notes--even in the lecture hall,...."

The lecturer is reading the "Lectures" from "detailed, antique (antiquated) notes" while s/he is being recorded on video/audio.

The lecturer is delivering (reading aloud) her/his lecture notes.

All the best,
 

Taka

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So, do you mean that "if delivered form detailed, antique notes" is a condition for "Lectures on videotape, on audiotape and even in the lecture hall"? Considering where "if delivered..." is inserted, I thought it was a condition only for "(lectures) even in the lecture hall". For example, when I say "Sushi, Tenpura, and--if I have to choose one more favorite food--Sukiyaki", then "if I have to choose one more favorite food" is a condition only for "Sukiyaki.

Am I wrong?
 

RonBee

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I don't think that sentence says that detailed, antique notes or even notes of any kind are conditions for delivering lectures of any kind.

:)
 

Taka

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Hi, RonBee. Thanks for the responce,

RonBee said:
I don't think that sentence says that detailed, antique notes or even notes of any kind are conditions for delivering lectures of any kind.

:)

If it's not conditions (or subjunctives), then what is it? What does "if..." modify there??
 

RonBee

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Taka said:
Hi, RonBee. Thanks for the responce,

RonBee said:
I don't think that sentence says that detailed, antique notes or even notes of any kind are conditions for delivering lectures of any kind.

:)

If it's not conditions (or subjunctives), then what is it? What does "if..." modify there??

Here is the original sentence:
  • Lectures on videotape, on audiotape and--if delivered form [sic] detailed, antique notes--even in the lecture hall, come closer to the way knowledge is stored in books or on the Internet than to the manner in which it can be created and obtained through open questions and collaboration.
It says that if the lectures are delivered from detailed, "antique" notes that those lectures come closer to the way knowledge is stored in books or on the Internet than the other way which is mentioned. The word if there doesn't really modify anything, but it introduces a clause that informs us that those lectures--for some reason--must be delivered from the notes mentioned. It doesn't say that lectures in general have to be delivered from notes, but it says the lectures they have in mind have to be delivered from notes.

:)
 

Taka

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Let me ask this question grammatically.

When there is a "A, B, and--(an inserted clause) --C" strucutre, are you saying that there are two possibilities: one is the case that the inserted clause is given to explain only C (like the Japanese food example that I've given), and the other is that the inserted clause is there to explain A, B, and C?
 

Casiopea

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Taka said:
So, do you mean that "if delivered form detailed, antique notes" is a condition for "Lectures on videotape, on audiotape and even in the lecture hall"? Considering where "if delivered..." is inserted, I thought it was a condition only for "(lectures) even in the lecture hall". For example, when I say "Sushi, Tenpura, and--if I have to choose one more favorite food--Sukiyaki", then "if I have to choose one more favorite food" is a condition only for "Sukiyaki.

Am I wrong?

All lectures = lectures recorded on videotape, lectures recorded on cassette tape, and lectures given (i.e. delivered) in a lecture hall.

All lectures could be delivered (i.e. read) from 'detailed, antique notes'. People usually read from their "notes" when they are giving a lecture.

Here's the point:

Lectures, no matter the form, be it on TV, on cassette tape, or in a lecture hall, all lectures resemble books. That is, when you are reading a book, you cannot talk to the author. When you are listening to a cassette tape you cannot talk to the author, and when you are sitting in a lecture hall, you cannot talk to the lecturer while s/he is speaking. Lectures are not communication, per se. Communication is when you are able to share yout thoughts with someone through questions and collaboration of ideas (through speaking with one another).

All the best,
 

Taka

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Casiopea said:
All lectures = lectures recorded on videotape, lectures recorded on cassette tape, and lectures given (i.e. delivered) in a lecture hall.

All lectures could be delivered (i.e. read) from 'detailed, antique notes'. People usually read from their "notes" when they are giving a lecture.

Here's the point:

Lectures, no matter the form, be it on TV, on cassette tape, or in a lecture hall, all lectures resemble books. That is, when you are reading a book, you cannot talk to the author. When you are listening to a cassette tape you cannot talk to the author, and when you are sitting in a lecture hall, you cannot talk to the lecturer while s/he is speaking. Lectures are not communication, per se. Communication is when you are able to share yout thoughts with someone through questions and collaboration of ideas (through speaking with one another).

All the best,

I perfectly understand what you mean Casiopea (and RonBee), and I would make the same interpretaion as you IF THE CLAUSE "if delivered form detailed, antique notes" WERE NOT THERE , but, say, in front instead, like "If delivered form detailed, antique notes, lectures on videotape, on audiotape and even in the lecture hall come closer to...". Or maybe at the end of the sentence.

What's puzzling me is the stranage position where the clause is inserted (and therefore I thought the detailed, antique notes were something other than typical notes which were uniquely used only for lectures in the lecture hall, and consequently I've been in confusion).

Let me ask one more time (from grammatical point of view).

When there is a "A, B, and--(an inserted clause) --C" strucutre, are there grammatically---and semantically--- two possibilities: one is the case that the inserted clause is given to explain only C (like the Japanese food example that I've given), and the other is that the inserted clause is there to explain A, B, and C? If so, could you please give me another examples for the latter case?
 

RonBee

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It makes sense to me that a lecturer might use detailed notes, but the "antique" part doesn't make much sense to me. Hopefully, any clause inserted into a sentence is there to clarify matters and does serve to clarify and not confuse.

:)
 

MikeNewYork

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RonBee said:
It makes sense to me that a lecturer might use detailed notes, but the "antique" part doesn't make much sense to me. Hopefully, any clause inserted into a sentence is there to clarify matters and does serve to clarify and not confuse.

:)

I had a microbiology professor in coolege who used antique notes. They hadn't been updated in at least a decade. :mad:
 

RonBee

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MikeNewYork said:
RonBee said:
It makes sense to me that a lecturer might use detailed notes, but the "antique" part doesn't make much sense to me. Hopefully, any clause inserted into a sentence is there to clarify matters and does serve to clarify and not confuse.

:)

I had a microbiology professor in coolege who used antique notes. They hadn't been updated in at least a decade. :mad:

With some context to it the term antique notes does make more sense.

:)
 

Taka

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The whole paragraph:

Lectures on videotape, on audiotape and--if delivered form detailed, antique notes--even in the lecture hall, come closer to the way knowledge is stored in books or on the Internet than to the manner in which it can be created and obtained through open questions and collaboration. As a method of conveying information, lectures lack the speed and the free-ranging exploration typical of computer access to data. The information they contain is rarely the reason for our interest in them; the source of their fascination is the eloquence and angle of vision of the lecturer. What makes such presentations worthwhile is the opportunity they afford of seeing, and asking questions about how another human being perceives the world.

If the clause is, as you teachers say, for all lectures mentioned, I don't understand why the word "even" is there in "even in the lecture hall"...
 

Taka

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A friend of mine has made another interpretation as follows, and I think it makes more sence:

Lectures on videotape, audiotape, are filmed, recorded; you have records and in this point they are similer to data stored in books or on the Internet. On the other hand, lectures in the lecture hall are ad hoc: unless taped, filmed, there is no records of the lectures, and in this way lectures done live is close to discussion and the like. HOWEVER, if the lectures are based on detailed antique notes, the lectures are much closer to data in books or on the Internet simply because there are recorded documents.

Therefore, "if deliverd..." is only for (lectures) in the lecture hall.
 

Taka

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Any comments on my friend's analysis?
 

Casiopea

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Taka said:
If the clause is, as you teachers say, for all lectures mentioned, I don't understand why the word "even" is there in "even in the lecture hall"...

Lectures on videotape, on audiotape and--if delivered form detailed, antique notes--even in the lecture hall,....

Lectures on videotape (A), on audiotape (B) and even in the lecture halls (C).

'even' = not just recorded on tape, but also live in person


Lectures on videotape, on audiotape--if delivered from detailed, antique notes and not improvised to some extent--

The underlined portion refers to 'Lectures on videotape, on audiotape'. It does not refer to '[lectures] in the lecture hall' because those lectures are to some extent improvised.

In short,

"Lectures on videotape (A), on audiotape (B)--if delivered from detailed, antique notes--and even in the lecture halls (C)."

(A), (B) and (C) form the sentence proper. 'even' means, not only that but this, too. The underlined portion is not part of the sentence proper. It's added information which functions as an after thought. It modifies (A) and (B), but not (C). Since the dashes (--...--) represent an after thought and (C) is not mentioned before the after thought, (C) cannot be included in the after thought. That is the writer's intended meaning. But, the reader's interpretation is based on what s/he has just read and what s/he knows about lectures: that it is possible that all lecture notes can be delivered from detailed, antique notes.

All the best,
 

Taka

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Thank you very much for the comments, Casiopea.

"Lectures on videotape (A), on audiotape (B) --if delivered from detailed, antique notes--and even in the lecture halls (C)."

The position of "and" is a bit different form the original: "Lectures on videotape (A), on audiotape (B) and--if delivered from detailed, antique notes--even in the lecture halls (C)."

Do you still think there is no semantic difference?
 

Casiopea

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Taka said:
Thank you very much for the comments, Casiopea.

"Lectures on videotape (A), on audiotape (B) --if delivered from detailed, antique notes--and even in the lecture halls (C)."

The position of "and" is a bit different form the original: "Lectures on videotape (A), on audiotape (B) and--if delivered from detailed, antique notes--even in the lecture halls (C)."

Do you still think there is no semantic difference?

Yes. They're still the same in my opinion.

Sorry about 'and'.

All the best,
 
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