[Grammar] English is not easy to learn

[ysc1230]

It seems too difficult for me to know whether I should use passive or active.

The text is too difficult to translate (or 'to be translated'?) Both are correct.
bhaisahab answered that the above sentense in 2 ways were both correct. I wonder if othe teachers agree with.



Thanks!

 

[Pokemon]

Oops. Sorry

However,
in whichever terms one argues, 'English' is the object of the infinitive in "It is not easy to learn English'. Equally, it is clearly the subject of 'is' in "English is not easy to learn".

If, in that second sentence, as well as being the subject of 'is', it is also the object of 'to learn', we can hardly call it 'a passive meaning'. As I said previously, "That does not mean that the English active construction has a passive sense".

Semantic roles and syntactic functions are two different things.

English is not easy to learn.

Syntactically, yes, 'English' is the subject of the sentence. But semantically it doesn't play the role of the doer of the action. 'English' cannot learn itself, somebody has to do it. Therefore the doer of the action (learning) is not expressed explicitly in the sentence, it's implied. Semantically it's a sentence with an implied doer understood as 'any person'.

 

[5jj]

Semantic roles and syntactic functions are two different things.

English is not easy to learn.

Syntactically, yes, 'English' is the subject of the sentence. But semantically it doesn't play the role of the doer of the action. 'English' cannot learn itself, somebody has to do it. Therefore the doer of the action (learning) is not expressed explicitly in the sentence, it's implied. Semantically it's a sentence with an implied doer understood as 'any person'.

IBut the doer can be assumed in "English is not easy (for people) to learn/It is not easy f(or people) to learn English". It is simpler to see a an active meaning than a passive one.

There are cases in English, for example, "The book has sold very well", in which an active verb has a meaning that appears close to passive. However, in the sentence we are discussing, this is not the case.

 

[5jj]

It seems too difficult for me to know whether I should use passive or active.

The text is too difficult to translate (or 'to be translated'?) Both are correct.
bhaisahab answered that the above senten[STRIKE]s[/STRIKE]ce in 2 ways were both correct. I wonder if other teachers agree with him.

Yes, I agree. Both are correct in some cases.

1. The text is too difficult * to translate
2. The text is too difficult to be translated*.

In the first, active, construction, we can assume a doer (for us/anybody) where I have put the asterisk; in the second, passive, construction, we can assume a doer (by us/anybody). Unfortunately, "English is not easy to be learnt" is not a natural English utterance However, the fact that some verbs can be used naturally in both active and passive sentences of this nature reinforces the view that "English is not easy to learn" is active; it just happens not to have a natural passive version.

 

[Pokemon]

IBut the doer can be assumed in "English is not easy (for people) to learn/It is not easy f(or people) to learn English". It is simpler to see a an active meaning than a passive one.

It is probably "simpler" because, being a native speaker, you have never had the need to look at these constructions from the semantic perspective. But what comes natural for you may create problems for English learners. And unless they analyse everything carefully, they woudn't know how to use it.

 

[5jj]

It is probably "simpler" because, being a native speaker, you have never had the need to look at these constructions from the semantic perspective. But what comes natural for you may create problems for English learners. And unless they analyse everything carefully, they woudn't know how to use it.

I am a believer in Occam's razor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

As a native speaker, and a student and teacher of languages for more years than I care to remember, I look at constructions from many points of view. I have analysed this construction, and come to the conclusion that it is an active construction. It is not an easy construction for some learners to comprehend, but pretending that it is passive in meaning does not make it any easier.

As we saw with this pair:

1. The text is too difficult to translate
2. The text is too difficult to be translated,

the infinitive in #1 is both semantically and syntactically active; in #2 it is passive.

Even in the other example I gave, "The book has sold very well", the passive gloss is not particularly helpful. That sentence does not mean the same as the unnatural "That book has been sold very well", and is different in meaning from "That book has been very well sold". It is closer in meaning to "Many copies of that book have been sold" or "Many people have bought copies of that book". The first of those two paraphrases is passive in construction, the second active. Neither is definitive.

If a teacher knows that an active English construction is rendered by a passive construction in the student's own language, then it may be useful to talk of 'a passive meaning'. For French students, it may be helpful to speak of a 'reflexive meaning'. However, if we are using English to talk about English, then we need to stick to what we have in front of us. These examples we are talked about are syntactically active, and one semantic gloss (in my opinion the more natural) is that they are semantically active.

 

[suprunp]

May I ask you my small and, apparently, not very sophisticated question?

John is easy to deceive.
If the adjective has an adverb form with the suffix -ly (easy/easily), a passive construction is possible.
John is easily deceived.
If there is no adverb form in -ly, a passive construction may be possible with an adverbial phrase, which will normally have end-position.
The house was to be found (only) with difficulty.
(Guide to Patterns and Usage in English, A.S. Hornby)

Unfortunately, I have failed to find any allusions to the impossibility of using certain verbs in the passive construction ('learn', 'teach', as was shown before) and I wonder why it wasn't mentioned, as it does not seem to be an 'easily-understood' thing per se.

Taking this into consideration, should one avoid using passive constructions of such a kind unless one is confident that one has heard (read) them from someone whose knowledge can be relied upon?

(Is it possible that a common native speaker, who has not been taught the intricacies of English, can be relied upon regarding this issue, in other words, what is the possibility that a native speaker will make a mistake using such constructions?)

Thanks.

 

[5jj]

Taking this into consideration, should one avoid using passive constructions of such a kind unless one is confident that one has heard (read) them from someone whose knowledge can be relied upon?

That is sound advice for any construction you are not confident about.

Is it possible that a common native speaker, who has not been taught the intricacies of English, can be relied upon regarding this issue, in other words, what is the possibility that a native speaker will make a mistake using such constructions?)

That's a grey area. There are many points (such as the third person -s ending in the third person singular form of the present simple, which is not used in other forms) where there is general agreement on what is 'correct' in standard English. Even here, some native speakers produce non-standard forms which are quite acceptable in their own dialects, and some of these speakers may not be relied on when discussing standard English.

In other areas (such as the use of the subjunctive), there is no real agreement, even among well-educated speakers, on just what forms are acceptable or 'correct'.

 

[Tdol]

And unless they analyse everything carefully, they woudn't know how to use it.

I would have to question this- simply accepting that something is used and using it works as well. You don't have to be a mechanic to drive a car.

 

[leonardoatt]

You can't bear the person knowing much more than all of you.

 

[5jj]

You can't bear the person knowing much more than all of you.

To whom is that addressed?

 

[leonardoatt]

To the person named ''Leonardo Noudle".I have been learning English from 6 since now.Then You are correcting my sentence? Funny but not fair.

 

[5jj]

To the person named ''Leonardo Noudle"(space).I have been learning English from 6 [STRIKE]since[/STRIKE] until now, and at the present [STRIKE]Y[/STRIKE]you are correcting my sentence.(space)Funny but not fair

All of us who post in this forum must expect to have any slips corrected. Most of us welcome this; many specifically ask for such correction. Sometimes the slips are mere typos, but they still need to be corrected in case learners think they are correct.

 

[leonardoatt]

It is completely acceptable that you are a native speaker and English is your mother tongue but you can ignore the pupils who might even know more than you.And about that sentence I swear that i saw a sentence with that structure.It does not matter i am insisting on my opinion.:up::up::up:

 

[5jj]

And about that sentence I swear that i saw a sentence with that structure.It does not matter i am insisting on my opinion.:up::up::up:

leonardatt, you need to be more specific with your references. If you are referring to the sentence ""English is easy to be taught", I accept that you have seen it. However, with COCA giving 10 relevant example of 'easy to teach', and none of 'easy to be taught, I have some objective support for saying that the second is not natural English.

 

[Pokemon]

All of us who post in this forum must expect to have any slips corrected. Most of us welcome this; many specifically ask for such correction. Sometimes the slips are mere typos, but they still need to be corrected in case learners think they are correct.

You forgot to correct his 'at the present'. Remove the article.

 

[Pokemon]

You know what?I am like a 5-years-old child seen an strange thing and continually describing that thing but no one cares or even notice.Ok I am disapointed.

Oh, don't cry, please. I will hear you out with great pleasure. Tell me please what strange thing has been haunting you since you were five.

 

[leonardoatt]

Hey you!!!!!!!!!!!!Are you cutting a joke?

 

[leonardoatt]

Please read the post from the begining then you will get the point.U FUNNY MAN!

 

[5jj]

Perhaps it is time to forget the personal comments and get back to 'English is not easy to learn' - if there is anything new to add.