[Grammar] It is annoying when ...

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jutfrank

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You should focus on the function here.

The red part (noun clause) is the complement of the adjective annoying, so you can call it an 'adjective complement'.
 

TheParser

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Sitifan, I notice that the British Broadcasting Corporation English learning website refers to it as a wh-clause.

Here is their example: "It's wonderful when children take their first walk." ("When children take their first walk is wonderful.")


Source: I went to Google and typed in these words: BBC preparatory "it."
 
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5jj

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Calling it a wh- clause does not tell us what its function is in sitifan's sentence.
 

Phaedrus

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239. It is annoying when she tries to affect a British accent.
https://sentencedict.com/accent_8.html

Is the clause in red a noun clause or an adverb clause?
If "it" is understood as a vague situation-"it," the "when"-clause is naturally parsed as adverbial. Compare:

(1) I am annoyed when she tries to affect a British accent.

I incline toward that parsing in light of the fact that the "when"-clause can simply be fronted:

(2) When she tries to affect a British accent, it is annoying.

In that variation, the "when"-clause does not replace "it" but is used in addition to "it," which remains the subject of the main clause. Meanwhile:

(4) It is hard to know when she is trying to affect a British accent.
(5) ?* When she is trying to affect a British accent, it is hard to know.

In (4) and (5), the "when"-clause functions as an embedded question, and the fronting of the "when"-clause is grammatically questionable at best. However, an extraposition analysis of (4), on which "it" is not situation "it" but a dummy used in anticipation of the embedded "when"-question, works fine:

(4a) (Exactly) (w)hen she is trying to affect a British accent is hard to know.
 

TheParser

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Sitifan, I have found some information that satisfies me, and I offer it to you for your consideration.

1. A highly respected book gives this sentence: "It doesn't matter when we arrive." ("When we arrive doesn't matter.") He parses "When we arrive" in that sentence as a noun clause.

a. Another source reminds us that a wh-clause can be used as the subject of a sentence.

2. I may be mistaken, but I think that the words under consideration would be an adverb clause in this kind of sentence that I have made up: "I wince when(ever) she affects a British accent." As you can see, it seems to modify the verb "wince." It is not being used as the subject of a sentence.





Sources: Alexander, Longman English Grammar (1988), page 78; S. Verma, Common Errors in English (2017), page 146. The first source is in my personal library; the second source comes from Google "Books."
 

sitifan

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1. It is annoying when she tries to affect a British accent.
2. When she tries to affect a British accent, it is annoying.
3. When she tries to affect a British accent is annoying.
If #1 and #2 have the same meaning, the wh-clause in #1 is an adverb clause.
If #1 and #3 have the same meaning, the wh-clause in #1 is a noun clause.
 
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Phaedrus

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1. A highly respected book gives this sentence: "It doesn't matter when we arrive." ("When we arrive doesn't matter.") He parses "When we arrive" in that sentence as a noun clause.

Those two sentences work beautifully. Many would say they are even formally (generatively, transformationally) related, "It doesn't matter when we arrive" deriving from "When we arrive doesn't matter" by way of extraposition.

According to this way of viewing things, dummy/expletive/anticipatory it steps in as subject, while the when-clause gets bumped, or extraposed, to the position following the predicate of the clause (doesn't matter).

If I am not mistaken, the only when-clauses with which extraposition is grammatically acceptable are interrogative when-clauses, that is to say, when-clauses that function syntactically as embedded questions. I understand when we arrive in TheParser's Longman example as interrogative.

A: When will we arrive?
B: It doesn't matter.

Another way to tease out the interrogativity of the sentence When we arrive doesn't matter is to see that it might be paraphrased as The answer to the question of when we will arrive doesn't matter. Now, let's see what happens when we put the same when-clause in a non-interrogative syntactic context:

(a) *? When we arrive will be too late.
(b) It will be too late when we arrive.

I trust that other native speakers will find (a) to be of highly questionable grammaticality. I have the same reaction to the sentence ?* When she tries to affect a British accent is annoying, though I respect the (to me, amazing) fact that TheParser seems to find it acceptable.

Why, then, is (b) acceptable? I wish to maintain that the reason (b) is acceptable is that it does not involve extraposition. Its it is not anticipatory it, and it has not displaced the when-clause from subject position. It is simply the dummy found in time sentences like It is too late. Notice that when-clause fronting works in (b):

(b') When we arrive, it will be too late.

However, when-clause fronting does not work (at least, does not work well) in the Longman example:

*? When we arrive, it doesn't matter.

a. Another source reminds us that a wh-clause can be used as the subject of a sentence.

The question which I think is before us is whether a non-interrogative when-clause can be extraposed. For example, in a perfectly well-formed sentence like "When I get home is my own business" (Kolln and Funk, Understanding English Grammar, 9th ed., 2012, p. 182), there is no doubt that the when-clause is functioning as subject, but it appears to be interrogative.

A: When will you get home?
B: That is my own business.

Given that when you will get home in Kolln and Funk's example appears to be interrogative (for them, it is simply "nominal"; they do not differentiate between interrogative and non-interrogative wh-clauses in declarative sentences), it is not surprising that it works well with extraposition:

It is my own business when I get home.

I have found confirmation for my sense that only interrogative wh-clauses can be extraposed in the revered tome The Syntactic Phenomena of English (2nd ed., 1998), by the late James D. McCawley, one of the greatest syntacticians the world has ever known. He writes:

"Interrogative complements can be extraposed, while free relatives cannot (10) . . ." (p. 456).

(10) a. *
[strike]It's still in the car what(ever) you bought.[/strike]
(10) b. It isn't important how much he bought.
Before I bring this lengthy post to a close, I should like to share another quote I found, this one from The Cambridge Grammar of the English Language (Huddleston and Pullum, 2002). Another way sitifan's example (It is annoying when she tries to affect a British accent) may be written is:

I hate it when she tries to affect a British accent.

Huddleston and Pullum have the following to say about the related example I don't like it when you behave like this. This is the eighth example in those they label (57) on page 1482:

The last three examples . . . bear some resemblance to extraposition insasmuch as . . . what I don't like is your behaving like this. But they differ from extraposition in that the final elements are not content clauses, not potential replacements for it, and it is for that reason that we include them under the present heading [namely 'Special Uses of 'It' - Weather, time, place, condition']" (CGEL, p. 1482).
 
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5jj

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I trust that other native speakers will find (a) to be of highly questionable grammaticality. I have the same reaction to the sentence ?* When she tries to affect a British accent is annoying, though I respect the (to me, amazing) fact that TheParser seems to find it acceptable.
I can't see the post in which TheParser said that he found it acceptable.
 

Phaedrus

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I can't see the post in which TheParser said that he found it acceptable.

Oh, neither can I! My apologies to TheParser. I must admit that I was inferring that he found it acceptable from this:

Sitifan, I notice that the British Broadcasting Corporation English learning website refers to it as a wh-clause.

Here is their example: "It's wonderful when children take their first walk." ("When children take their first walk is wonderful.")

I have the same reaction to ?* When children take their first walk is wonderful as I do to ?* When she tries to affect a British accent is annoying. I find them equally unacceptable. Interestingly, when I followed the link that GoesStation provided (provided again here), I could not find the "non-extraposed" version that TheParser gave (the sentence I find unacceptable: [strike]When children take their first walk is wonderful[/strike]).

The BBC site might be said to implicitly endorse that sentence, however, in so far as they describe the sentence It is wonderful when children take their first walk as involving a "preparatory it" and a "delayed subject." As I parse the sentences, both Sitifan's and the BBC's, there is no delayed subject and no preparatory/expletative/anticipatory it. I parse the it as vague, dummy-like, and situational, and the when-clause as an adverbial adjunct.

My argument for the adverbial-adjunct parsing of the when-clause in each case is that it can be fronted (When children take their first walk, it is wonderful; When she tries to affect a British accent, it is annoying), whereas extraposed when-clauses cannot (very felicitously, anyway) be fronted: It is hard to say when children take their very first walk; ?* When children take their very first walk, it is hard to say.
 

sitifan

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1. It is annoying when she tries to affect a British accent.
2. When she tries to affect a British accent, it is annoying.
3. When she tries to affect a British accent is annoying.
If #1 and #2 have the same meaning, the wh-clause in #1 is an adverb clause.
If #1 and #3 have the same meaning, the wh-clause in #1 is a noun clause.
The focus of #1 is the wh- clause. The focus of a sentence is normally placed at the end of the sentence, so I feel that #2 sounds unnatural. In my opinion, #3 is semantically odd.
 

Phaedrus

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In my opinion, #3 is semantically odd.

Doesn't the feeling that (3) is semantically odd (the feeling that it is syntactically odd, as well as semantically odd, perhaps does not arise for you as a nonnative speaker) disappear for you when "annoying" is changed to "unclear," a predicate which renders the subject "when"-clause an embedded question rather than a free relative clause?

4. When she tries to affect a British accent is unclear.

Traditional grammars erroneously lump together embedded questions and free relative clauses as "noun clauses." I have been trying to come up with an example in which a "when"-clause must be interpreted as an extraposed free relative clause with "it" as its anticipatory dummy. I think I have managed to come up with such an example. Interestingly, when the "when"-clause is transposed to a infinitival clause, extraposition works fine:

5a. It inspired my parents when they saw Neil Armstrong walk on the moon.
5b. ?*! When they saw Neil Armstrong walk on the moon inspired my parents.

6a. It inspired my parents to see Neil Armstrong walk on the moon.
6b. To see Neil Armstrong walk on the moon inspired my parents.

Sentence (6b) does not come very naturally to me, but I consider it within the realm of spoken possibility. I hope that other native speakers, including TheParser, will weigh in on these examples. If you yourself were fortunate enough to see Neil Armstrong walk on the moon (when he actually did so), please feel free to change the example accordingly. :)
 

TheParser

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In (4) and (5), the "when"-clause functions as an embedded question, and the fronting of the "when"-clause is grammatically questionable at best. However, an extraposition analysis of (4), on which "it" is not situation "it" but a dummy used in anticipation of the embedded "when"-question, works fine:


NOT A TEACHER

Hi, Phaedrus:

As you know, my knowledge of English grammar is strictly at the secondary school level, so much of your erudite comments have flown right over my head.

I just wanted to share something with you that I found yesterday as I was researching the preparatory "it" in Google "Books." It does not directly relate to the preparatory "it," but it did open my (secondary school-level) eyes to what an adverbial clause is and what it isn't. Maybe you can use it in some fashion.

1. "I wonder [when Nikos started writing his book]." That is a wh-clause with an indirect question. [My comment: I guess it means "When did Nikos start writing his book?"]

2. "I left [when Nikos starting writing his book]." That is an adverbial clause.

Source in Google "Books": Georgiafentis, Contrastive Studies in Morphology (2020), page 166.

*****

P.S. I am very contented that I learned (thanks to Sitifan's question) that "when she affects a British accent" is defined as a noun clause when it is the subject of a sentence with a preparatory "it." I couldn't sleep until I had found at least one respected book's opinion.
 

sitifan

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If- and when-clauses behave very much like extraposed subjects in sentences like:
It would be a pity if we missed the show. [cf It is a pity that we missed the show]
It will be a great day when you win the sweepstake.
It is doubtful in each case, however, whether the clause could act as subject, although it could act as initial adverbial clause: If we missed the show, it would be a pity (cf 10.9ff). On balance, therefore, these appear to be adverbials rather than extraposed subjects. (CGEL 1392; their italics)
https://books.google.com.tw/books?id=urVhDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT167&dq="their+italics"+"it+is+doubtful+in+each+case"+"as+initial+adverbial+clause"&hl=zh-TW&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiQzMDGtsb5AhUZI6YKHY6gBpAQ6AF6BAgCEAI#v=onepage&q="their italics" "it is doubtful in each case" "as initial adverbial clause"&f=false
The above passage is quoted from Subjects in English: From Valency Grammar to a Constructionist Treatment of Non-Canonical Subjects, Peter Uhrig.
 
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