What is the common thing in "would" in many cases?

[Raymott]

Raymott!
Would
is where I extracted the examples.

Yes, EnglishClub.com is a generally reliable site; and their "Would" page looks quite comprehensive and correct (though necessarily simplified in places, as all such grammar pages are.)

 

[Raymott]

Raymott! You said in two different opposite ways for "would imagine"
First, you said it's conditional mood, then later reinterated that opinion is related to other verbs like "imagine" not "would".

No, I didn't call it "conditional mood". As I said in post #16, “It might not be classified as a "conditional sentence" in traditional grammar, but it's not hard to imagine its origin in some form of conditionality.” This related to the examples I quoted.
My point here is that “I would imagine they’ll buy a new one” and “I imagine they’ll buy a new one” are both equally opinions, therefore it is difficult to see how ‘would’ makes it an opinion.
“Would” is commonly used when expressing opinions, wishes, etc. (“It’s true that ‘would’ is often associated with the expressions you’ve given.” post #18)

The fact that we say “I would like ...” more often than we say “I would hate ...” is not a sign that “would” makes an expression of desire. And the website doesn’t actually state that it is. It merely has headings “Opinion and Hope”, etc. with some sentences using “would” below. They then let you decide what they mean by that.

But the important thing is: Do you know how to use “I would imagine they will buy a new one”, etc? If you do, then whether there is any amount of conditionality implicit in the sentence is not important. (As you’ve seen from above, there is not agreement among native speakers, but understanding the technicalities is not necessary to understanding and using the phrase.)

Are other usages of "would" all related to "remoteness" instead of conditional? or are they all both? What is the exact meaning of remoteness? Is it the distance between the speaker and the listener or less chance or possibility of the event mentioned?
I wouldn’t teach “would” the way this site does. It doesn’t seem useful for me to be constrained by their terms and to explain what they mean – when I disagree with the implications they’re making, and in some cases, am not really sure what they mean.

Perhaps someone else will adopt the framework you’ve given and explain everything in those terms. If not, and if you still don’t understand “would”, you might consider doing a bit more reading, posting again with those uses of “would” you don’t understand; and ask for a fresh discussion without worrying too much what one particular website says. But I can’t give you a simple-to-learn way to categorise “would”. As I say, perhaps someone else will.
Good luck!

 

[5jj]

EnglishClub.com is a generally reliable site; and their "Would" page looks quite comprehensive and correct (though necessarily simplified in places, as all such grammar pages are.)

And remember that their classifications: Talking about the past, Future in past, Conditionals, Desire or Inclination, Polite Requests and Questions, Opinion, or Hope, Wish, Presumption or Expectation, Uncertainty, and Derogatory are merely an attempt to identify patterns of usage. In some cases they are not particularly helpful - As Raymott pointed out for just one group, "The ‘desire or inclination’ comes from the following verb, not from ‘would’.

You seem to be hoping to find a single underlying meaning for 'would' in all cases. Grammarians have been attempting to do this for all the modals for some, without any marked success.

One approach is to consider would as a 'distanced' form of will. It makes the situation denoted by the following verb more remote in: (1) time, (2) reality and (3) directness:

1a. John is so boring; he will sit in front of the computer for ages, ignoring everything that is going on around him.
1b. John was so boring when I knew him at college; he would sit in front of the computer for ages, ignoring everything that was going on around him.

2a. If I lose my job, I will move back to Yorkshire.
2b. If I lost my job, I would move back to Yorkshire.

3a. Will you open the window, please?
3b. Would you open the window, please?

 

[corum]

Did you mean to use window' here?

in which the act [of the hearer's opening the window] taking place is so improbable [STRIKE]as to[/STRIKE] that any question to it amounts to [STRIKE]little more than[/STRIKE] speculation.

The fact is that these words are used to ask someone to open the door.

Yes the illocutionary force, as I have already said it once, is one of request. And I also mentioned that this request is wrapped in a conditional sentence.

As I pointed out earlier, few grammarians use the term 'conditional mood'

Sorry, but I only read the OP's post. If few grammarians use the conditional mood, how does it affect my argument?

 

[5jj]

in which the act [of the hearer's opening the window] taking place is so improbable [STRIKE]as to[/STRIKE] that any question to it amounts to [STRIKE]little more than[/STRIKE] speculation.
My question concerned your use of 'window'. I simply wondered whether you had typed this in error instead of 'door'.

Yes the illocutionary force, as I have already said it once, is one of request. And I also mentioned that this request is wrapped in a conditional sentence.
In the absence of any explicit, or even implicit, condition, I don't really see how it can be considered a conditional sentence.

If few grammarians use the conditional mood, how does it affect my argument?
As few grammarians use the term 'conditional mood', I think it is confusing for learners if we use it in this forum.

5

 

[corum]

This kind of communication happens sometimes between my wife and me while I am watching football on TV:

(translated from Hun into Eng)

1. Corum: Would you bring my beer over to me?
2. Without fail, frowning and groaning is my beloved interlocutor's response.
3. Corum: ... If I asked you sweetly and amiably to, please.

That is why I sense an implicit condition in "Would you open the door, window, your mouth, etc." In Hungarian, the implicit condition is there.

 

[corum]

Would you open the door, please?
Kinyitnád az ajtót, kérlek?

In the Hungarian version, the verb is in conditional mood (feltételes mód) which the verbal suffix (-nád) explicitly indicates. In Hungarian, we only apply the -nád/-néd suffixes in conditional mood? Never otherwise.

It may also be interesting to point to how phrasal verbs in Hungarian work.
"Kinyitni" is a compound word, partikula (that is how we call particles) plus main verb, which is written as one word. Nyitni means to open, which already implies an outward movement. Still, in Hungarian, we use "ki", which means "out".
The Hungarian language is fun. It is a pity I did not like it at school. My teacher's lessons never failed to have a soporific effect on me.

 

[5jj]

(translated from Hun into Eng)

1. Corum: Would you bring my beer over to me?
2. Without fail, frowning and groaning is my beloved interlocutor's response.
3. Corum: ... If I asked you sweetly and amiably to, please.

That is why I sense an implicit condition in "Would you open the door, window, your mouth, etc." In Hungarian, the implicit condition is there.

In the situation you have noted, there might even be an implicit condition in #1 in English (of course, it's explicit in #3).

However (in English) If I asked you sweetly and amiably to. would you bring my beer over to me? is as much a hypothetical conditional sentence as a request. Only full context - and the intonation of the words when spoken - can tell us which it is.

On its own, Would you bring my beer over to me? is a request with, in English, no condition implied. Indeed, the question mark (in the written form), which was mandatory in my youth, is no longer so.

 

[corum]

Kinyitnád az ajtót, kérlek?
Would you open the door, please?

In the Hungarian language, the conditional mood (felszólító mód) has its own inflectional system. Verbs get -nád/-néd suffixes in singular first person. Phonology influences verbal morphology.

Elvennéd a pénzt?
Would you take the money?

Kinyitnád az ajtót?
Would you open the door?

In the Hungarian translation of "Would you open the door?", the verb is inflected for conditional mood as is manifest in the verb kinyitnád's form. Verbs never get -nád/-néd elsewhere. Only in conditional mood.

It may also be interesting to mention some of the eccentric characteristics of Hungarian phrasal verbs. Let us take "kinyitni" into consideration. It consists of "ki", a partikula (that is what we call it) plus the main verb, nyitni, which are written as one word. "Nyitni" already implies an outward movement, still we apply "ki", a particle meaning out. :up:

 

[corum]

Any comment to this, 5jj:
https://www.usingenglish.com/forum/...mmon-thing-would-many-cases-3.html#post701369
?

 

[5jj]

Any comment to this, 5jj?

No.
It's interesting to know what happens in other languages, but we have to analyse English as it is.

 

[corum]

No.
It's interesting to know what happens in other languages, but we have to analyse English as it is.

Provided you are right, why do Hungarians feel there should be something conditionial to asking someone politely and why do the English feel there should not, and vica versa.
When and how does comparative grammar help linguists?
-------------

A: Will you open the door?
B: No, I will not. Why would I?

Why is "B" a tad unorthodox?

How has "will" become a marker for request?

A: Would you open the door?
B: If what?
A: If I asked you sweetly.
B: Any time.
A: Would you open it then?
B: As I already told you, yes, I would open the door; just ask me.

How has "would" become a polite request?

"Will" originally meant "to wish, desire, want"

 

[5jj]

Provided you are right,
I usually am ;-)
why do Hungarians feel there should be something conditionial to asking someone politely and why do the English feel there should not, and vice versa.

You are raising issues that go far beyond this thread.

A vastly over-simplified answer is that most of us feel that our own language is the best way of expressing things; all other languages are deficient if they cannot function in the way our language does.

So (and I stress that I am over-simplifying) corum knows that Hungarian has a conditional mood, and feels that English ought to have one. Even if there isn't one in English, he will try to find signs of one.

It just happens that "Hungarians feel there should be something conditionial to asking someone politely", and, I feel, speakers of BrE do not. Neither language is 'better' or 'more efficient' than the other. It just happens that speakers of Hungarian and speakers of English use different linguistic ways to express similar ideas.

As to 'why?' - ask God, if you happen to believe in him/her/it/them.

 

[5jj]

B: No, I will not. Why would I?
Why is "B" a tad unorthodox? In the right context, it isn't unorthodox.

How has "will" become a marker for request? Why not, given that 'will' can imply willingness?

How has "would" become a polite request?
No problem, if you think about my idea of so-called 'past' tenses being forms that distance in time, reality and directness.

5

 

[corum]

I usually am

So am I. Even if I am not!

It just happens that "Hungarians feel there should be something conditionial to asking someone politely", and, I feel, speakers of BrE do not. Neither language is 'better' or 'more efficient' than the other. It just happens that speakers of Hungarian and speakers of English use different linguistic ways to express similar ideas.

That is good to keep in mind. :up:

As to 'why?' - ask God

God knows why. :up:

Amen to this conversation. Thanks for your time.

 

[bhaisahab]

Opinion or hope
[FONT=&#44404]-I would[/FONT][FONT=&#44404] imagine that they'll buy a new one. [/FONT]

[FONT=&#44404]- Since you ask me I'd say the blue one is best[/FONT]​

I don't see this as hope. The speaker does not necessarily know or care about the answer. The speaker is giving an opinion simpy because they've been asked for one. You can imagine your own conditions:


Raymott! You said in two different opposite ways for "would imagine"
First, you said it's conditional mood, then later reinterated that opinion is related to other verbs like "imagine" not "would".

Are other usages of "would" all related to "remoteness" instead of conditional? or are they all both? What is the exact meaning of remoteness? Is it the distance between the speaker and the listener or less chance or possibility of the event mentioned?

[FONT=&#44404]-I would[/FONT][FONT=&#44404] imagine that they'll buy a new one. [/FONT]
To me it's obvious that there is implied conditionality here, "I would imagine (if you were to ask me) that they'll buy a new one.

 

[5jj]

[FONT=&#44404]-I would[/FONT][FONT=&#44404] imagine that they'll buy a new one. [/FONT]
To me it's obvious that there is implied conditionality here, "I would imagine (if you were to ask me) that they'll buy a new one.

There may be* in that example, but in 'Would you open the door', there is no implied conditionality (if I asked you). With those words, I am actually requesting that you open the door.

*I don't actually think there is, but I'll concede the point so that we don't lead this thread into distant highways and byways.

 

[5jj]

So am I. Even if I am not!

Well, we agree on some things. :-D