[Grammar] Where versus That in defining relative clause

[Lilyoftheorient]

Hi,

“This is the annex where / in which Anne Frank stayed during WWII.”

“This is the annex that / which Anne Frank stayed in during WWII.”

I know “that” cannot be used in place of “where” or “which” in the case of non-defining clause as in:

“Leslie is late again, which bother me.” “We like Four Seasons hotel, where we stayed last summer.”

Can “that” be used in place of “where”? in the case of defining clause? I was told by someone that it’s not possible. I also understand “which + preposition” is formal. Could an English expert please help clear my doubts.

Thank you, Lily

 

[Charlie Bernstein]

Hi,

“This is the annex where / in which Anne Frank stayed during WWII.”

Both are fine.

“This is the annex that / which Anne Frank stayed in during WWII.”

Use that, not which.

I know “that” cannot be used in place of “where” or “which” in the case of non-defining clause as in:

“Leslie is late again, which bothers me.”

That's fine.

“We like the Four Seasons Hotel, where we stayed last summer.”

Can “that” be used in place of “where”? in the case of defining clause?

To use that in that sentence, you'd have to say: "We like the Four Seasons Hotel that we stayed in last summer."

That tells us that there's more than one Four Seasons Hotel.

If there's only one, then that and in don't work. Instead, you'd have to say: "We like the Four Seasons Hotel, which we stayed in last summer."

That tells us there's on one Four Seasons.

I was told by someone that it’s not possible. I also understand “which + preposition” is formal. Could an English expert please help clear my doubts.

We'll see!

Thank you, Lily

You're welcome.

 

[emsr2d2]

Note that BrE uses "annexe" as the noun and "annex" as the verb. Also, are you aware that by writing "Thank you, Lily" at the end of your post, you're actually thanking yourself? You should have used a full stop instead of a comma. There is, of course, no need to thank us before we help you.

 

[Alexey86]

“This is the annex that / which Anne Frank stayed in during WWII.”

Use that, not which.
...

If there's only one, then that and in don't work. Instead, you'd have to say: "We like the Four Seasons Hotel, which we stayed in last summer."

The annex, which Anne Frank stayed in during WWII, is unique. Why "that"?

 

[Charlie Bernstein]

The annex, which Anne Frank stayed in during WWII, is unique. Why "that"?

Hm. It occurs to me that the British might use which.

In American English, most people would use one of these:

- The annex that she stayed in is unique.
- The annex, which she stayed in, is unique.

The first (without commas) means that you're talking about more than one annex, and the one she stayed in was unique.

The second (with commas) means that there you're only talking about one annex, and it's unique.

We do not usually say "The annex which she stayed in" (without comma), but the British often do.

 

[Alexey86]

Thank you, Charlie, but I'd like to focus on Lilyoftheorient's sentence: “This is the annex that / which Anne Frank stayed in during WWII.

Why do you think that should be used, given that the annex is unique (= the only one)?

 

[emsr2d2]

Thank you, Charlie, but I'd like to focus on Lilyoftheorient's sentence: “This is the annex that/which Anne Frank stayed in during WWII.

Why do you think that should be used, given that the annex is unique (= the only one)?

I would use "that" there too. I choose between "that" and "which" depending on what the word refers back to (and, I've noticed, whether a comma is required).

1. Today, I told my mother the truth about something that had been bothering me for years.
2. Today, I told my mother the truth about something, which made me feel much better.

In sentence 1, "that" refers to "something".
In sentence 2, "which" refers to "I told my mother the truth [about something]".

In the original sentence, "that" refers to "the annex" so it resembles sentence 1.

 

[Alexey86]

What if we put in before which: “This is the annex in which Anne Frank stayed during WWII"?

 

[emsr2d2]

What if we put in before which: “This is the annex in which Anne Frank stayed during WWII"?

That sentence is correct.

 

[Alexey86]

Charlie told you in post #2 that that was OK.

Of course! It's just surprising that the mere putting in before which makes the difference.

 

[emsr2d2]

Never be surprised by anything regarding prepositions in English!

 

[Alexey86]

Never be surprised by anything regarding prepositions in English!

English prepositions are quite [STRIKE]whichy [/STRIKE] witchy.

 

[Tarheel]

You could also say:

This is the annex where Ann Frank stayed during World War 2 (WWII).

 

[Charlie Bernstein]

You could also say:

This is the annex where Ann Frank stayed during World War 2 (WWII).

Yup. It's the one she stayed in. It's the one in which she stayed.

 

[Lilyoftheorient]

Yes, I totally agreed with this answer though it sounds a bit formal. Thank you all.

 

[jutfrank]

“This is the annex where / in which Anne Frank stayed during WWII.”

“This is the annex that / which Anne Frank stayed in during WWII.”

Correct.

I know “that” cannot be used in place of “where” or “which” in the case of non-defining clause as in:

“Leslie is late again, which bother me.” “We like Four Seasons hotel, where we stayed last summer.”

Correct.

Can “that” be used in place of “where”? in the case of defining clause?

No. There may be some exceptions (involving the noun place) but don't worry about that for now.

I also understand “which + preposition” is formal.

Correct. (I assume you made a mistake here and that you meant to write "preposition + which".)

 

[Charlie Bernstein]

Yes, I totally agreed with this answer though it sounds a bit formal. Thank you all.

Yes, you're right, "the annex in which she stayed" does sound formal. I was just correcting what you gave us.

It would be much more conversational to call it "the annex where she stayed."