"When do you know the shop is closed?"

[Casiopea]

Welcome, ttiwel.

[Temico]

Also 'when you see the shutters up' could equally be a time reference.

Of course, it's a time reference but is that the expected reply for the question, "When will the store open, please?" ?

[Casiopea]

Of course, it's a time reference but is that the expected reply for the question, "When will the store open, please?" ?

It could work that way, sure. What about?

Max: Excuse me. (pointing) When will the store open, please?

Passer-by: (You'll know it's open) When the shades are up.

Max: Isn't there a given time that it opens?

Passer-by: No, not with that shop. The guy who runs it has a different work ethic. He opens when it feels like it.

In short, "When does/will the store open?" could be interpreted as either "Under what condition?" or "What time?". "When" expresses both (a) at what time? and (b) on what occasion? So, "When" could be interpreted as, say, the occasion when "the shades are up" or a specific time, say, 8:00 am.

Getting back to Sula's original example question, "When do you know the store is open?", if we add in the covert conditional element "if", you'll find there's pretty much only way to interpret "When": as an occasion.

Max: When do you know (if) the store is open?
Passer-by: If/When the shades are up.

"When" in that context lends itself to "Under what condition does the store open?" "if/when" is a common one. (It drives Traditionalists mad.)

All the best,

[Temico]

Max: When do you know (if) the store is open?
Passer-by: If/When the shades are up.

I see. If the "when" is replaced with a "how", the question would become:-

Max: How do you know (if) the store is open?
Passer-by: If/when the shades are up. (Am I not right?)

In other words, "when" and "how" are synonymous in the above examples. However, in the following examples they are not:-

Max: When do you know the store is open for business?
Passer-by: We will know at 2p.m. when the management-labour meeting is over.

Max: How do know the store is open for business?
Passer-by: When the staff return from their lunch break.

[Casiopea]

I see. If the "when" is replaced with a "how", the question would become:-

Max: How do you know (if) the store is open?
Passer-by: If/when the shades are up. (Am I not right?)

In other words, "when" and "how" are synonymous in the above examples.

Yes, in that context. But . . . and I wonder if it would work elsewhere? Good question, Temico.

I'll work my way through it as I type.

"When" expresses time;i.e., on what occasion, whereas "How" expresses manner, by what means, in what way. "How" could never express time, in the way that "When" does, but "When" can express "How":

EX: How did you know how do that? After watching Max do it. (means)
EX: When did you know how do that? After watching Max do it. (occasion)

Ah, yes, and the reason being, I believe, is this. In order to define "How"; i.e., 'by what means', mention of an occasion is required. In other words, "When" is housed within "How". That's the bit they share and the reason they are synonymous in certain contexts, notably those that refer to an occasion, like "When do you know (if) the store is closed."

What are your thoughts?

[Temico]

but "When" can express "How"

"How" can also express "when" sometimes. See my previous example:-

Max: How do know the store is open for business?
Passer-by: When(= the time/moment) the staff return from their lunch break.

[Casiopea]

"How" can also express "when" sometimes. See my previous example:-

Max: How do know the store is open for business?
Passer-by: When(= the time/moment) the staff return from their lunch break.

In that context, "When" refers to the occasion when, and not to a specific time, say, 8:00 a.m., right? So, the indirect relationship, "When" refers to time, therefore "How" refers to time, doesn't work.

To reiterate, "In order to define "How"; i.e., 'by what means', mention of an occasion is required". Both "How" and "When" share similar semantic content, which is the reason they are synonymous in certain contexts, notably contexts that refer to an occasion:

How "by what means; *what time"
When "on what occasion; what time"

"When", as you've emphasized in the example dialogue above, can express both "the time" and the occasion. But "How" doesn't express both. It can't refer to "the time". Notice that the reverse doesn't work:

Max: When do you know the store is open for business?

Passer-by: How the staff return from their lunch. (i.e., If they look refreshed, then the store is open for business, and if they seem drunk, the store is definitely not open for business. )

Thanks for contributing, Temico. See you in the Forum.