Is there any evidence for thinking?

[taghavi]

No worries Raymott! I'd like to answer your questions.
Human beings have 2 dimensions comprise material and spiritual. Both differ from each other. When I am talking about "material" I refer to "nature" that is far away spirit, and spirit in animals and other creatures are also different from spirit of human beings. Here your question is about nature of animals and I can add humans to your category, because we are talking about material dimension; that is nature. As you know there is something called "evolution" including both "spritual evolution" and "material evolution". So we think of material evolution; animals have had phyisical evolution from the past time to now. As I said before human's perception will become complete because of their spiritual dimension, so perception sets in spiritual category while animals are lack of such this powerful part.
In our philosophy, evolution is not rejected; But it has been mentioned- especially in Koran- and also I have seen it in "tora"- evolution for formation of earth, embryos and so on.

[Raymott]

Originally Posted by taghavi

No worries Raymott! I'd like to answer your questions.
Human beings have 2 dimensions comprise material and spiritual. Both differ from each other. When I am talking about "material" I refer to "nature" that is far away spirit, and spirit in animals and other creatures are also different from spirit of human beings. Here your question is about nature of animals and I can add humans to your category, because we are talking about material dimension; that is nature. As you know there is something called "evolution" including both "spritual evolution" and "material evolution". So we think of material evolution; animals have had phyisical evolution from the past time to now. As I said before human's perception will become complete because of their spiritual dimension, so perception sets in spiritual category while animals are lack of such this powerful part.
In our philosophy, evolution is not rejected; But it has been mentioned- especially in Koran- and also I have seen it in "tora"- evolution for formation of earth, embryos and so on.

Well, you seem to have an intellectual advantage over fundamentalist Christians in that respect.
But that's not exactly evolution as I mean it. Obviously embryos evolve; languages evolve. I meant the evolution of species, as per Darwin. Is that allowable in your philosophy?

Yes, I think you are talking about a "soul" that will be perfect, not the body. Some Christians believe that when Jesus returns, he will raise the dead (people who believed in him, not the likes of me), and that they will be physically resurrected in a perfect form. I do not understand how this is possible since, in your friend's case, if she were "perfect", she would have to be a different person - having never had input from other people etc. And how will your friend have developed a soul anyway, given that she has had no religious input, and therefore cannot believe in such concepts?

Also, if you believe it is souls that will be perfect, not bodies, will a believer's soul be able to communicate with the "souls" of their pets?

[taghavi]

As you accepted before Darwin's theory on apes, which were the source of human beings, has been rejected. Now you want to know if species of animals are being evolved, my answer could be "yes". And our philosophy doesn't refuse Darwin's idea. these species are still evolving to get the end of physical evolution. All creatures have their own degree to become complete. That is, all species should get their own perfect degree. So, human beings should get their own perfection degree, animals also should get their own perfection degree, plants and other things in the universe should do too. If you mean that species are being evolved and will change into other shapes, this idea would not be denied by our philosophy.


Well, about my friend; as I said before I dont know whether she thinks or not, if she does so, I dont know the way of her thinking. Yes, she hasn't obviously received any religious or ideas as I did, but I cannot here prove that the way of getting her own perfection degree. Because I am still an imperfect creature. However, she will become perfect according to her degree. in koran we see that God told people " I wouldn't expect someone/something to do but their ability and capacity". This verse obviously insists that your capacity is significant to get something. Providing one was inherently unable to do something- and they were created like my friend- in fact, they would got the perfection itself.

I believe in "resurrection" that one day believers physically come back this world after they die. But this matter is underquestion whether christians who still live here and believe Jesus can back this world or not. i am not rejecting christians, but it needs more powerful religion than christianity. if you let me, I will explain it in this respect after more conversation. Because it needs taking more time and has a separate argument.


I can give my answer to this question about communicating with pets' soul, but you might be a bit confused now.
Again my answer here could be "yes". Not only you will able to communicate with animals but also with other creatures. Again, I can refer to koran and might be written in the Bible about some prophets like "Solomon" who was able to communicate with animals-hoopoe- and insects-ants. So, this is not very strange if people communicate with their pets in future.

of course, I note that the soul of animals and other creatures is limit and not as extensive as human being's soul.

[Raymott]

Originally Posted by taghavi

As you accepted before Darwin's theory on apes, which were the source of human beings, has been rejected.
You might have misunderstood me. I didn't reject Darwin's theory. I said that Darwin's theory does not state that we descended from apes. Both apes and humans descended from a common ancestor.
I know it's been rejected though, quite often and loudly by a number of people. It's still the preferred explanation for evolution among scientists though.

Now you want to know if species of animals are being evolved, my answer could be "yes".

But you don't believe that a species can evolve into two different species - which is essential to evolution?

And our philosophy doesn't refuse Darwin's idea. these species are still evolving to get the end of physical evolution. All creatures have their own degree to become complete. That is, all species should get their own perfect degree. So, human beings should get their own perfection degree, animals also should get their own perfection degree, plants and other things in the universe should do too.

Well, about my friend; as I said before I dont know whether she thinks or not, if she does so, I dont know the way of her thinking. Yes, she hasn't obviously received any religious or ideas as I did, but I cannot here prove that the way of getting her own perfection degree. Because I am still an imperfect creature. However, she will become perfect according to her degree. in koran we see that God told people " I wouldn't expect someone/something to do but their ability and capacity". This verse obviously insists that your capacity is significant to get something. Providing one was inherently unable to do something- and they were created like my friend- in fact, they would got the perfection itself.

I can give my answer to this question about communicating with pets' soul, but you might be a bit confused now.
Again my answer here could be "yes". Not only you will able to communicate with animals but also with other creatures. Again, I can refer to koran and might be written in the Bible about some prophets like "Solomon" who was able to communicate with animals-hoopoe- and insects-ants. So, this is not very strange if people communicate with their pets in future.
OK.

of course, I note that the soul of animals and other creatures is limit and not as extensive as human being's soul.
I see.

R.

[taghavi]

Now it's my question for you; If this common ancestor makes both humans and apes, so how the unlimited soul came into one species and became a human? you mean a human being is common with apes in a phyisical shape yes?, so how about their soul? from where this soul came into one species and the other one has still remained like before?

I believe in two or might be more different species in a similar soul, that is; different shapes in a similar level. For example; dogs are descended from wolves and jackals, neither wolves nor jackals have far different soul. dogs are also like their ancestors.

[Raymott]

Originally Posted by taghavi

Now it's my question for you; If this common ancestor makes both humans and apes, so how the unlimited soul came into one species and became a human?

Well, you are postulating a "soul". Evolution does not try to account for a soul, because there's nothing to account for. As you say, it's a spiritual thing. If one branch of our common ancestor became an ape, and has, as you say, a lesser or different type of soul, that is a question for religion, not science.
Obviously Catholicism has found a way around this problem, since the last pope made an official agreement to the truth of evolution. My guess is that the more advanced, more intellectually-evolved species would lay claim to the highest quality soul.

you mean a human being is common with apes in a phyisical shape yes?, so how about their soul? from where this soul came into one species and the other one has still remained like before?
How do you know that is the case? And if it is, wouldn't a god have the power to make that happen?

I believe in two or might be more different species in a similar soul, that is; different shapes in a similar level. For example; dogs are descended from wolves and jackals, neither wolves nor jackals have far different soul. dogs are also like their ancestors.
I believe that, as humans became more intelligent, and invented religion (I'm not necessarily making a causal connection here), a soul would be an ideal invention as a vehicle for their spiritual needs. Just imagine - a facility by which we could commune with the gods, and perhaps outlast death. Once the concept was invented, who wouldn't want one?

R.

[taghavi]

Evolution does have something called "soul"to account for, but this is "naure" has not power to account for soul. So we cannot say evolution simply leds to "physical formation".

Now a sientific question for you, as you know "dolphines" are clever animals and most scientists believe that they are cleverst among animals even more than apes and the structure of their brain is common with human beings in some ways, why these descendants haven't developed and changed into a species which intellects more than before while one of the animal species developed such as human being with the highest intellectual?

Do you want to know how this soul came into human beings?
First of all, let me know what you think about your soul? where does it come from? and why your soul isn't like that of other phenomenons? I look forward to hearing your answer!


according to your last paragraph, humans meet their spritual needs by intelligence and religeion. Because they get more intelligent. here again I ask you a question: do you believe that because of spritual needs, they invented religion?

I cannot understand, would you please clarify the last question? what's the meaning of who wouldn't want one?

[Raymott]

Originally Posted by taghavi

Evolution does have something called "soul"to account for, but this is "naure" has not power to account for soul. So we cannot say evolution simply leds to "physical formation".

When I say "evolution" I mean "evolution of the species" - the science of evolution. "Souls" are not the subject of secular science. Science doesn't have a theory of souls.

Now a sientific question for you, as you know "dolphines" are clever animals and most scientists believe that they are cleverst among animals even more than apes and the structure of their brain is common with human beings in some ways, why these descendants haven't developed and changed into a species which intellects more than before while one of the animal species developed such as human being with the highest intellectual?
I don't understand the logic of your question. You seem to be saying, Because dolphins are so intelligent, how come they haven't evolved to be as intelligent as humans? or to be more intelligent? Well, I'm sure they have evolved to be more intelligent than their ancestors were. I'm not familiar with the evolutionary history of dolphins though. Evolutionary theory cannot yet explain exactly why splits occurred in a certain species and new species occurred. There are some good hypotheses.
Why did our human branch evolve to be more intelligent than the ape branch? There's no answer to that. The only thing that can be said is that if that had occurred, then apes would be typing each other, and humans would be swinging in trees, not concerned about this argument.

Do you want to know how this soul came into human beings?
First of all, let me know what you think about your soul? where does it come from? and why your soul isn't like that of other phenomenons? I look forward to hearing your answer!
As you know, I'm an agnostic. Since I don't believe in a god, I don't need to believe in a soul. I think that a "soul" is an invention of the mind. Some people feel the need for one. The concept is certainly easy to understand, and there have been times earlier in my life when I believed in a soul, since that's what I was taught. But there's no logical necessity for one.

according to your last paragraph, humans meet their spritual needs by intelligence and religeion. Because they get more intelligent. here again I ask you a question: do you believe that because of spritual needs, they invented religion?
Yes, because of spiritual needs, fear of death, hope for something better in the future, hope of an afterlife, a deep wish to see evil punished and good rewarded ... I do understand why some people can become reliant on religion.

I cannot understand, would you please clarify the last question? what's the meaning of who wouldn't want one?
I mean that souls are a great invention - they partake in all those things I just listed. Most people, early in Mankind's development, would probably think that having a soul was a good thing.

R.

[taghavi]

It's very interesting why science has not yet found this important answer as you said that "why did our human branch evolve to be more intelligent than the ape branch?"

Why there is not any other species like human to control species else?

How much did dolphines or other animals evolved more than their ancestors? they have brain, so do they progress at the level of speaking and analysing after taking million years?
Do they have any ideas to challenge? Why is a human being the only species to develope extraordinary?
Science must give answers to such these simple questions after a great scale of research having done during long years! and I am asking a person who bases his studies on visible reasons.

When you lost your feeling of asking your questions on various subjects, then, you could explicitly say "I dont need to believe in soul". When you lost the feeling of tendency for yourself, you would explicitly say "I dont need to believe in soul". ......and the most important, when you lost "I" as your identity, you would explicitly say that " (....) dont need to believe in soul".

[Raymott]

Originally Posted by taghavi

It's very interesting why science has not yet found this important answer as you said that "why did our human branch evolve to be more intelligent than the ape branch?"
I think there are far more interesting things that science hasn't solved yet.

Why there is not any other species like human to control species else?
Why are humans the only species that control other species? Intelligence is the obvious answer. We control other animals because we can. Do you have a better answer?

How much did dolphines or other animals evolved more than their ancestors? they have brain, so do they progress at the level of speaking and analysing after taking million years?
No, dolphins haven't evolved to be able to speak. More importantly, they don't use language in a symbolic way as humans do. You have to remember that intelligent life is millions of years old, but science, and especially the technology that science needs to answer questions like that are only a few hundred years old.

Do they have any ideas to challenge? Why is a human being the only species to develope extraordinary?
Dolphins, as you pointed out, are far more intelligent than most animals. Various species have evolved to be more or less intelligent than other species; just as other characteristics vary a lot, such as physical size.
It's like asking why have no other mammals evolved to the size of the Blue Whale. Why is the shrew the smallest mammal?

Science must give answers to such these simple questions after a great scale of research having done during long years! and I am asking a person who bases his studies on visible reasons.
Science will answer questions of a scientific nature eventually. I'm not sure why you think science should be more advanced than it is. There are also funding priorities - practical problems.
There is some evidence that there are no species as intelligent as humans because humans have wiped out their closest competitors. Homo sapiens wiped out Homo erectus because they were more intelligent.
If dolphins became so intelligent that they started to control people, then people would certainly try to eradicate dolphins. Once you get to the top of the tree, you don't easily give up your spot. You don't need science to show you that.

When you lost your feeling of asking your questions on various subjects, then, you could explicitly say "I dont need to believe in soul". When you lost the feeling of tendency for yourself, you would explicitly say "I dont need to believe in soul". ......and the most important, when you lost "I" as your identity, you would explicitly say that " (....) dont need to believe in soul".
That is true if you believe that your "self" or your identity is located in a separate entity called the soul. If you are defining one's identity, "self" etc. as one's soul, then yes, I have a soul. However, by "soul", I'm referring to a specific entity that transcends death, that may or not be reincarnated or go to heaven or paradise.
You don't need to believe in a soul to have a sense of identity or "to ask questions on various subjects". In fact, if souls exist, you don't have to believe in souls to have one. If you do have to believe in them to have one, then that is proof that they are inventions of the imagination. The same applies to gods, of course.

R.