Is there any evidence for thinking?

[taghavi]

now about "intelligence"; as you said "intelligence" has the most important role amid animals and human is the most intelligent phenomenon, i want to know why such this thing is far different others. for example; if i consider the common ancestor between apes and animals, why apes' intelligence have been developed with a tiny short step, while human being's intelligence developed far more than apes, from the same family? I mean they should be similar according to "intelligence" like dogs, wolves, jackals, and like cats, tiggers, lions in their families and so on. As you see, the difference in their levels of family is not far away. They just answer their instinct and use their intelligence for hunting, running away from their enemies. But they havent developed a little even in building a new style of shelter. We should at least observe a bit development according to such this "intelligence". Apes are similar other animals while human has got a thing more than "intinct". Human has got a thing can fight against inspite of their whises.
He can recognize between good and evil. i cannot believe that human is a kind of animal with unlimited whises. Animals do not wish for you, but human do so! unlimited whishes are apart from your intelligence. you can easily dream and remember it , sometimes your dreams may come true. And you would say that "I had seen such this event in my dreams many years or a few days ago".

Yes, dolphines like other creatures have their own language. But do they analyse or discuss something? do they teach and come over other animals? again they havent developed despite their highly intelligence.


Exactly, I agree that sicence has a very good development by human beings hands. and definitly, science proves there is no any creature as intelligent as human.
dolphines cannot get to the land of human but humans could get the sea of them by using day-by-day new styles. be sure that human looks forward to being known if dolphines or other animals can develope a bit more than before. So humans wouldn't ban animals' development.


where did your identity come from? what is "I"?

[Raymott]

now about "intelligence"; as you said "intelligence" has the most important role amid animals and human is the most intelligent phenomenon,
Do you mean intelligence is what distinguishes humans from other animals the most?
Yes, I would agree with that. Language is another thing, and the ability to think in abstract terms, and invent things such as religion. But again, this probably all comes down to cognitive abilities that are more advanced in humans.

i want to know why such this thing is far different others. for example; if i consider the common ancestor between apes and animals, why apes' intelligence have been developed with a tiny short step, while human being's intelligence developed far more than apes, from the same family? I mean they should be similar according to "intelligence" like dogs, wolves, jackals, and like cats, tiggers, lions in their families and so on.
I can see your point. You believe that the differernce in intelligence between humans and animals is far too great to be due to evolution. But you are neglected the very great difference in intelligence among other species. For example, you are claiming that dolphins are very intelligence, alost as smart as chimpanzees – but they are obviously very different animals. Now, dogs are more intelligent than rats, which are more intelligent than frogs, etc. There is a gradation. I agree that the step between other animals and man is a big step, but I already pointed out in my last post that this is explainable by humans exterminating any species that approached us in intelligence.
I’m not a palaeontologist or an thnropologist, but there have been various humanoid species such as Australopithecus and H. habilis, H, erectus, Neanderthal Man, which, if they had they survived, would be in that gap between H. sapiens and other animals.

Given another million years, one of the ape family might have evolved to be as intelligent as we are today. Besides, when you think about it, H sapiens does have many cognitive limitations, as you initial post pointed out. There are many things we can’t do. Some of us, individually, are not very bright at all. Collectively, we can barely survive together on the planet without trying to wipe each other out (whether by race or religion, or some other tribal marker). We are destroying the earth with pollution. How intelligent are humans really?

As you see, the difference in their levels of family is not far away. They just answer their instinct and use their intelligence for hunting, running away from their enemies. But they havent developed a little even in building a new style of shelter.
Beavers build damns, rabbits build warrens, bees build hives, spiders build webs …

We should at least observe a bit development according to such this "intelligence". Apes are similar other animals while human has got a thing more than "intinct". Human has got a thing can fight against inspite of their whises. He can recognize between good and evil.
i cannot believe that human is a kind of animal with unlimited whises.
Sorry, I’m not sure what you mean by these unlimited wishes that animals have that humans don’t. Are you saying that humans don’t have, or act on, instincts?

Yes, dolphines like other creatures have their own language. But do they analyse or discuss something? do they teach and come over other animals? again they havent developed despite their highly intelligence.
That’s right – as far as we know, of course, from their external actions. They might have clever conversations among themselves – How would we know? Can you read a dolphin’s mind?

Exactly, I agree that sicence has a very good development by human beings hands. and definitly, science proves there is no any creature as intelligent as human.
I’d prefer to say that no other animal has been proved to be as intelligence as a human.

dolphines cannot get to the land of human but humans could get the sea of them by using day-by-day new styles. be sure that human looks forward to being known if dolphines or other animals can develope a bit more than before. So humans wouldn't ban animals' development.
I’m not sure what you are saying in this paragraph. Are you denying that humans would eradicate dolphins if dophilns ever became smarter than humans and began to control them?

And about the expression you called "separate identity", here is a problem, identity is not far away "yourself" it is all thing that i know you. How many identieties does "yourself" have?
No, you’ve mis-read me.
“That is true if you believe that your "self" or your identity is located in a separate entity called the soul.”
entity, not identity. But the difference is not so important. I’m not claiming to have multiple identities. I only pretend to have one.
Western philosophers traditionally divide people up into bodies, minds and sometimes souls – physical, mental, and spiritual. Some eastern philosophies say we also have various astral or ethereal bodies – 7 is a common number. All of these entities are parts of one’s single identity. And even that identity is illusionary, and ultimately is one with a universal mind. But that’s not my religion. So I don’t need to postulate several astral bodies of various degrees of subtlety. That doesn’t mean I don’t have them. If the Hindus are right, then maybe I do. Should I be concerned about this? Does it make me any less if I don’t confess to having a 7-fold astral body?

[taghavi]

Hi Raymott,
Whenever you feel this discussion boring ( you might have been tired since beginning ), please let me know to stop it. However, I enjoy keeping this discussion. And also sorry if my English has not been yet improved to convey what I mean.

ok, start!

Yes, "intelligence" refers to cognitive abilities and also something else for "whole person" as it reminds you of "Rogers" when he claimed that for learning, something should be added to person's mind; that is his "emotional concept" or i would rather called it "spritual capacity". When we are talking about psychology we wouldn't ignore "soul" as an important role. we say that one is tired not only physically and mentally but spritually. because when you are tired physically you need food, sleep, and so on. if you are tired mentally you again need sleeping but when you are tired of me, then you refer to your "soul". you hate me because your soul hates me and not your body or your brain(mind).


Yes, I do know that there are many smart species. But I mean it has not come any creature like human to have power of controling different kinds of species. and i do know that, for instance, dogs are smarter than rats, which are smarter than frogs. yet "controling" at least a group of species has not been devoted to such as dolphines.
can you give me an example if there is any kind of animal monitored or teach less intelligence species?


exactly, human beings has weakness to do many things and he is physically is at the lower level of other creatures. but I prefer to think of "recognition of good and evil", " the way of new styles to transfere what they mean" , "the best way of building new styles day-to-day", "the best wy of being the best person". Which animals do you know to costruct society? Animals only have their own routine rulles to hunt, to build a shelter, to flee away enemies, to reproduce themseves and to express limit emotions.


I meant the new way of building shelter in the same species and change it to new style. Does one species invent a new style to build their shelter? They even cannot copy from different species, unfortunately copying is common in human beings even in writting and deceive other people.



No, vice versa, i said i didn't believe human being is one of animals, because animals do not have unlimited wishes to try to live in them. human has struggle to get the best dream called "perfection".


Yes, I am denying, because human being by observing dolphines one-by-one and little-by-little is eager to find a better creature than human itself. human with his inherent seeking is following the cause of his unanswered-questions and costs any dangerous to know what is covered over the curtain. here is he looking for "perfection".



I had written the last paragraph but when I found my mistake then edited it before you read it. I don't know how it came back? !!!!!!!!!!!!! wow!!!!!!!????????

I am from east plus Islamic- Shiite philosophy. We dont agree on such this 7 astral bodies. This is superstitious.
one thing, we also disagree on something called "reincarnation", as you know, according to some people , soul came back from a dead body to another body. Yes?
Here "identity" is again underquestioned, because it isn't resonable if "I" changed into 2 "I"s. This "I" (self) is only devoted to one person. This is another superstitious. We havent heard such this in real world, havent read in Islamic texts and it is an illogical idea as well as injustice.

[Raymott]

Hi Taghavi

You went: Whenever you feel this discussion becomes boring ( you might have been tired since beginning ) for you, please let me know to stop it. However, I enjoy keeping this discussion. And also sorry if my English has not been yet improved to convey what I mean.
I’ll tell you when I’m bored. I hope this is giving you some motivation and opportunity to express yourself well in English. Do you want me to correct any of your English? Or would you rather me continue to just read it for meaning? Most of it is comprehensible (sometimes with a bit of guess work).
You are doing quite well. I think it is much better to practice writing with something like this that you are interested in, rather than doing boring essays, don’t you?
However, I have exams coming up in the next few weeks, and I might have to slow down the number of replies. But don’t stop posting! I might just be a day of two late replying.

Yes, "intelligence" refers to cognitive abilities and also something else for "whole person" as it reminds you of "Rogers" when he claimed that for learning, something should be added to person's mind; that is his "emotional concept" or i would rather called it "spritual capacity".
Do you mean Carl Rogers of Rogerian psychology? A lof of people, not only psychologists, but also language educationalists say that “intelligence” means more than just cognitive ability. That’s a semantic argument. I use the term to mean cognitive ability, but as long as I know how you are defining it, that is OK.
Rogers was a Humanistic psychologist who developed “client-centred therapy” – a reaction to Behaviourism and Psychoanalysis – more on practical rather than theoretical grounds. Rogers does not talk about souls. He does mention one’s “spirit” which can be taken metaphorically or literally as you wish.
Carl Rogers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

When we are talking about psychology we wouldn't ignore "soul" as an important role. we say that one is tired not only physically and mentally but spritually. because when you are tired physically you need food, sleep, and so on. if you are tired mentally you again need sleeping but when you are tired of me, then you refer to your "soul". you hate me because your soul hates me and not your body or your brain(mind).


If I hated you – which is unlikely, because I don’t hate people for no reason, and don’t hate people generally – I would call that an emotion. Emotions occur in the mind; they can also have effects on the body. Naturally, if you wish to postulate a soul, it would have effects there too. Rogers does talk about a person’s “spirit”. But that is a term in English which does not necessarily mean a “soul”. A spirit doesn’t necessarily religious.
Rogers lists one of the characteristics oif a fully functioning human as "To open one's spirit to what is going on now”. This doesn’t necessarily mean a religious thing. Rogers was a humanist, and quite possibly an atheist, and many/most self-proclaimed humanists are. It seems that you claiming that emotions occur in the “soul”, not in the mind. This is quite opposed to orthodox Western psychology, which does not address souls.
I suppose Muslim psychologists, if they exist, do deal with souls. Or do you clerics play the role of psychologists. If you are depressed or full of anger, etc., is this seen as a spiritual, rather than a psychological (mental) problem? Do your doctors treat serious depression as an illness? Or is it conceived of as spiritual, and therefore not in the field of medicine?

Can you give me an example if there is any kind of animal monitored or teach less intelligence species?
I don’t understand this question, sorry.


Which animals do you know to costruct society?
Bees, ants, lions, … But I understand what you are saying. Humans are far more intelligent that the closest animal. And you are asking why. I have given you some reasons (eg. because he has eradicated less smart but potentially dangerous species such as other early hominds). And you will tell me that it’s because God created us as special.

No, vice versa, i said i didn't believe human being is one of animals, because animals do not have unlimited wishes to try to live in them. human has struggle to get the best dream called "perfection".
But isn’t religion partly to blame for that, because religion teaches that humans can reach perfection!

Yes, I am denying, because human being by observing dolphines one-by-one and little-by-little is eager to find a better creature than human itself. human with his inherent seeking is following the cause of his unanswered-questions and costs any dangerous to know what is covered over the curtain. here is he looking for "perfection".
Humans are looking at dolphins for perfection? Am I understanding you correctly?
Humans are interested in other intelligent animals, of course. But I can’t even imagine what this perfection is that you talk about.

I am from east plus islamic- Shiite philosophy. We dont agree on such this 7 astral bodies. This is superstitiouns.
Yes, you see it that way. If you were born in India, you would probably believe it.
You were born in Iran (I’m guessing), so you don’t believe it. Now, I believe that the ultimate truth is the same for Hindus and Muslims and atheists, and it is unrelated to what you or I believe.

one thing, we also disgree something called "reincornation" as you know, according to some people , soul came back from a body to another one. ok?
That’s the normal belief about reincarnation, yes.

Here "identity" is again underquestioned, because it isn't resonable if "I" changed into 2 "I"s. This "I" (self) is only devoted to one person. This is another superstitious. We havent heard such this in real world, havent read in islamic texts and it is an illogical idea as well as injustice.
I’m not sure where you got this idea from that I was suggesting that people had more than one identity. I haven’t said that. I say we have a body and a mind. You want to add a soul to that. These are all entities, not identities. It just means things or parts. They don’t have different identities.
By the way, what is the difference between a superstition, and a religion belief?

[taghavi]

I’ll tell you when I’m bored. I hope this is giving you some motivation and opportunity to express yourself well in English. Do you want me to correct any of your English? Or would you rather me continue to just read it for meaning? Most of it is comprehensible (sometimes with a bit of guess work). Yes, if it doesnt bother you. Thanks a lot.
You are doing quite well. I think it is much better to practice writing with something like this that you are interested in, rather than doing boring essays, don’t you? It's a good idea
However, I have exams coming up in the next few weeks, and I might have to slow down the number of replies. But don’t stop posting! I might just be a day of two late replying. No worries. is "linguistics" too difficult? Are you going to finish your studies in M.A? I wish I could learn English well and continue my studies in linguistics.


Do you mean Carl Rogers of Rogerian psychology? A lof of people, not only psychologists, but also language educationalists say that “intelligence” means more than just cognitive ability. That’s a semantic argument. I use the term to mean cognitive ability, but as long as I know how you are defining it, that is OK.
Rogers was a Humanistic psychologist who developed “client-centred therapy” – a reaction to Behaviourism and Psychoanalysis – more on practical rather than theoretical grounds. Rogers does not talk about souls. He does mention one’s “spirit” which can be taken metaphorically or literally as you wish.
Carl Rogers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




If I hated you – which is unlikely, because I don’t hate people for no reason, and don’t hate people generally – Thanks God! Your dont hate anybody I would call that an emotion. Emotions occur in the mind that is Roger's spirit?; they can also have effects on the body. Naturally, if you wish to postulate a soul, it would have effects there too. EXACTLY, I MEAN THIS Rogers does talk about a person’s “spirit”. But that is a term in Or do you clerics play the role of psychologists they could be! If you are depressed or full of anger, etc., is this seen as a spiritual, rather than a psychological (mental) problem? is it very strange? Do your doctors treat serious depression as an illness?they might be , why not? Or is it conceived of as spiritual, and therefore not in the field of medicine?

How can i express what i mean, yes i mean sth you call "mind", soth Rogers called "spirit", sth i call "soul". all refers to "identity". here i am talking about human and comparing him to other creatures.

i will refer to one of these alternatives;
1-myself 2-friends & family 3- psychologist 4-psychiatrist 5- clerics


They are all in the width.






Can you give me an example if there is any kind of animal monitored or teach less intelligence species?
I don’t understand this question, sorry.
Can dolphines teach cats?

Which animals do you know to costruct society?
Bees, ants, lions, … But I understand what you are saying. Humans are far more intelligent that the closest animal. And you are asking why. I have given you some reasons (eg. because he has eradicated less smart but potentially dangerous species such as other early hominds). And you will tell me that it’s because God created us as special.

I meant making a society that is not routine. is that too bad that you are special? you should be proud of being the superior of the creature!


No, vice versa, i said i didn't believe human being is one of animals, because animals do not have unlimited wishes to try to live in them. human has struggle to get the best dream called "perfection".
But isn’t religion partly to blame for that, because religion teaches that humans can reach perfection!

ok, apart from religion , your innate seeking perfection wont let you remain in a fixed situation. Do you like to stop seeking your answers? do you like not to learn something new? If your answer is yes, then you are supposed unconsciously to look for perfection!


Yes, I am denying, because human being by observing dolphines one-by-one and little-by-little is eager to find a better creature than human itself. human with his inherent seeking is following the cause of his unanswered-questions and costs any dangerous to know what is covered over the curtain. here is he looking for "perfection".
Humans are looking at dolphins for perfection? Am I understanding you correctly?
Humans are interested in other intelligent animals, of course. But I can’t even imagine what this perfection is that you talk about.

no dear, i meant if dolphines wanna get the better way than human's ways, here human being would let them do it. because human likes to know what will happen in the future. that is , human would like to perfect what he has learend up to now.

I am from east plus islamic- Shiite philosophy. We dont agree on such this 7 astral bodies. This is superstitiouns.
Yes, you see it that way. If you were born in India, you would probably believe it.
You were born in Iran (I’m guessing), so you don’t believe it. Now, I believe that the ultimate truth is the same for Hindus and Muslims and atheists, and it is unrelated to what you or I believe.

from what you know that shiite philosophy believes such this ridiculous idea. 7 bodies placed in astronomy subjects and my religion doesnt believe in which 7 entities make one's identity. yes i live in iran and if i were in another place, i might have thoes ideas. of course, in my countries a number of people are still believe in them.




I’m not sure where you got this idea from that I was suggesting that people had more than one identity. I haven’t said that. I say we have a body and a mind. You want to add a soul to that. These are all entities, not identities. It just means things or parts. They don’t have different identities.


no raymott, as i said before that i found my mistakes that you wrote "entities" in the previous post. and i had edited my paragraph before you reading. still it's strange for me how my last paragraph came back after editing.
i wrote this passage to deny "reincarnation term" and not for your idea. you divided this last passage into two parts. please look at above the original form!

By the way, what is the difference between a superstition, and a religion belief?

first of all, I'd better explain each term then compare them to each other.

1- what is superstition?
it's a kind of illogical idea which invented by one's imagination, like fabulous creatures, legendary characters and we put them into our real life and live with them in our imagination.

2- what is religion?
it consists of two parts;

A; it might be a program or just belief that could be either logical or illogical invented by humans that can divert the other humans by it's details. It may talk about God, or gods, souls, heaven, hell, angles and devil .....You can simply read a lot of religion ideas made by human beings with their various interests. For example, god here is a powerful human or a father who has a sun called jesus and an advisor named Gabriel or "Holy spirit" who helps him when he cannot solve his problem. you can easily see such this god with eyes, ears, hands, and the shape of a human, you can also look for him in the skies or heaven in your imagination. God can be an employee, when science developed then this employee went back. for example, that time people believed in god, they said god created "fever" when science discovered "microbe" causing fever then they said that god should be a retired employee. because human discovered the factor of fever. the ideal shape of god is as a human. he created humans and when human die if comit a crime or evil things he should be sent to hell. and if he deeds good things, he will be sent to heaven, then they will be condemned to live in a boring life for ever either in heaven or hell.



B; it is a logical ready-made program sent by God to his messengers and leads humans in the road of the unknown world. its ability to answer human's vital question from details to whole including who are you? why do you come? and where are you going?

i will explain the B in a couple of days.

[taghavi]

I would apreciate if you can edit my errors.

[Raymott]

Originally Posted by taghavi

I would apreciate if you can edit my errors.

Thanks.
I was having trouble with your "Yes" answer to an either/or question.
I will correct your most obvious or serious errors. I don't think I'd be able to correct all your errors and answer the content as well.

[taghavi]

did you read my answers to your letter? i wrote in brown
never mind, if you would like, you can edit any of them. feel free!

[Raymott]

Originally Posted by taghavi

did you read my answers to your letter? i wrote in brown
never mind, if you would like, you can edit any of them. feel free!

Yes, I've read it, but I haven't answered it yet.

[Raymott]

<Me in green>

No worries. is "linguistics" too (very) difficult? Are you going to finish your studies in M.A? I wish I could learn English well and continue my studies in linguistics.
No, linguistics is no more difficult than any other academic subject if you have a talent for it. Yes, it’s my M.A. exams that will make me spend less time on this site over the next few weeks – maybe! But I’m only half way through the course.

Thank s God! Your dont hate anybody I would call that an emotion. Emotions occur in the mind that is Roger's spirit?;

We say someone is in good spirits if they are happy. Other people call the “soul” the “spirit”. “Spirit” is a very non-specific word in English. I can mean a lot of things. It’s usually possible to tell when it’s used in the sense of a soul.

Or do your clerics play the role of psychologists they could be! If you are depressed or full of anger, etc., is this seen as a spiritual, rather than a psychological (mental) problem? is it very strange?
Is what very strange?

Do your doctors treat serious depression as an illness?they might be , why not?
Because if your culture conceptualises depression as a spiritual rather than a mental problem, it would normally be treated by spiritual means – ie. a priest or minister in a christian church. I don’t know what you call your spiritual advisers. Mullahs?

How can i express what i mean, yes i mean sth you call "mind", soth Rogers called "spirit", sth i call "soul". all refers to "identity". here i am talking about human and comparing him to other creatures.
But you must be clear that “mind” does not mean “soul” in English. Most people would say they believe in a mind. But fewer people would believe in a soul.

i will refer to one of these alternatives;
1-myself 2-friends & family 3- psychologist 4-psychiatrist 5- clerics
They are all in the width. (?)
Do you mean that they fall on a spectrum? If so, what is it a spectrum of? Is it the people you would turn to if you wanted help for depression or persistent anger, or something like that (since I gave those as examples?). If so, I would agree, but I’d omit clerics.

Can you give me an example if there is any kind of animal monitored or teach less intelligence species?
I don’t understand this question, sorry.
Can dolphines teach cats?
No. Do you have a cat? They are very hard to teach anything! [IMG]file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/Ray/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msohtml1/01/clip_image001.gif[/IMG]
But you are right. Humans are the only species I can think of that teaches other species.

I meant making a society that is not routine. is that too bad that you are special?[IMG]file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/Ray/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msohtml1/01/clip_image001.gif[/IMG] you should be proud of being the superior of the creature!
Why should I be proud when it is not of my making? If I study hard and get to be the top of the class, that is something to be proud of. But being a human is not something that makes me proud; it’s just a fact.


ok, apart from religion , your innate seeking perfection wont let you remain in a fixed situation. Do you like to stop seeking your answers? do you like not to learn something new? If your answer is yes, then you are supposed unconsciously to look for perfection!
I like to learn new things, and find answers to questions, and have new experiences. But I don’t expect to become perfect. There are also many people who are not so ambitious about learning and knowledge. Yes, I believe there is an innate human tendency towards wanting to acquire knowledge. Other animals don’t have this. But animals can be very curious too, That doesn’t mean they are looking for perfection.

I am from east plus islamic- Shiite philosophy. We dont agree on such this 7 astral bodies. This is superstitiouns.
Yes, you see it that way. If you were born in India, you would probably believe it.
You were born in Iran (I’m guessing), so you don’t believe it. Now, I believe that the ultimate truth is the same for Hindus and Muslims and atheists, and it is unrelated to what you or I believe.

from what you know that shiite philosophy believes such this ridiculous idea.
I’m not sure what this sentence means. It’s only a ridiculous idea because you don’t believe it! I know that Shiites and Muslims in general don’t believe in astral bodies.
But that hardly makes it ridiculous.