(just) as much ... as ... Prescriptive or Descriptive?

[MrPedantic]

Close...

[Steven D]

Originally Posted by X Mode

I would call it, maybe, lack of confidence in one's own language. In other words, prescriptivism causes people to learn their first language - again - in some cases. It's true that some speakers deviate far from the limitations of that which is standard and are not aware of it, but that's something else.

- know what I mean?

Yes. We're not talking about dialects here.

Originally Posted by X Mode

Yes. We're not talking about dialects here.

Just quality native speaker usage.

[Steven D]

Originally Posted by MrPedantic

I would say that since the construction 'as X as it is Y' already implies 'as much X as it is Y', the 'much' is redundant.

And what would you say about a speaker that says it? Would you tell a student that it's wrong and something you can't say?

[Steven D]

Originally Posted by MrPedantic

I would say that since the construction 'as X as it is Y' already implies 'as much X as it is Y', the 'much' is redundant.

Moreover, we are not literally comparing two qualities in terms of degree or quantity: no one who uses #2, for instance, is comparing 'this' quantity of unnecessariness with 'that' quantity of undesirability. The comparison is rhetorical: a comparative figure of speech is used to convey a non-comparative message. It really means little more than:

2a. This is unnecessary; furthermore, it is undesirable.

I think that's a very restrictive way of viewing language. It sends the wrong message to ESL/EFL students about how they are able to use English.

I don't think it means little more than that. If that's what someone wants to say, then someone will say it. Such a statement of comparison could very well be taken literally. It could be rhetorical, but not necessarily.

The following two statements are not the same. They mean different things.

That's even more unnecessary than it is undesirable.

That's as much unnecessary as it is undesirable.

The context is what gives logic to the utterance. If anyone were to say to me "You say food is necessary to life, but how necessary is it?", I would think they were nuts. If someone said "You say standard grammar study is necessary to life, but how necessary is it?", I would find that need for qualification quite acceptable. Why? Because the first is not based on a subjective viewpoint, but the second is.

[Steven D]

Originally Posted by M56

The context is what gives logic to the utterance. If anyone were to say to me "You say food is necessary to life, but how necessary is it?", I would think they were nuts. If someone said "You say standard grammar study is necessary to life, but how necessary is it?", I would find that need for qualification quite acceptable. Why? Because the first is not based on a subjective viewpoint, but the second is.

Yes.

And it seems that some posters can't separate their ideas about what they think is good writing from spoken language. They're far too critical. And I don't think these posters actually live up to the standards of how they think English should be "spoken" in reality.

[MrPedantic]

Originally Posted by X Mode

The following two statements are not the same. They mean different things.

That's even more unnecessary than it is undesirable.

That's as much unnecessary as it is undesirable.

Hello X Mode

I'd be inclined to agree. The difference resides in the construction:

1. as...as it is...

2. more...than it is...

A circle or square is as wide as it is tall.

A rectangle is wider (= more wide) than it is tall, or taller (= more tall) than it is wide.

MrP

[MrPedantic]

Originally Posted by X Mode

And what would you say about a speaker that says it? Would you tell a student that it's wrong and something you can't say?

If a student asked me, I would point out that the 'as much...as it is' construction has an element of redundancy, except in cases such as the one I mentioned earlier.

If the student then said, "Well, MrP, I rather like this construction, and find your approach overly restrictive; so up yours", I would say, Good luck to you, my friend.

MrP

Originally Posted by MrPedantic

Hello X Mode

I'd be inclined to agree. The difference resides in the construction:

1. as...as it is...

2. more...than it is...

A circle or square is as wide as it is tall.

A rectangle is wider (= more wide) than it is tall, or taller (= more tall) than it is wide.

MrP

Have you got these the wrong way around?

<1. as...as it is...

2. more...than it is...>

?2. That's even more unnecessary than it is undesirable.

?1. That's as much unnecessary as it is undesirable.