will x 2

[MrPedantic]

Hello M56

The sentence seems fine to me. I don't see it as a true conditional, though; the 'if' seems almost to mean 'since'. The main clause expresses an inference, rather than a consequence. To my mind, the pattern of a true conditional sentence is:

1. If X happens, Y happens.

But here we have:

2. If X is true, it means that Y is true.

(Or 'because X, Y'.)

Cf.

3. If it's dark outside, it isn't noon.

Darkness isn't a condition of the fact that it isn't noon, but a correlative.

I'd agree that 'will' here stands for 'is willing'.

MrP

Originally Posted by X Mode

If he's willing to kill himself, he's willing to kill us.

The sentence doesn't mean he'll kill himself first and then us, of course. He has to be willing to kill himself, then he'll be willing to kill us. First he'll kill us, and then he'll himself. What are his intentions?

That's how I see this "will x 2" sentence.

However, I don't often, if at all, think of or hear "will x 2" sentences.

<However, I don't often, if at all, think of or hear "will x 2" sentences.>

I think that they do not appear much in AE.

Anyway, here's a song:


Singing I will if you will, so will I;

Singing I will if you will, so will I;

Singing I will if you will,

I will if you will,

I will if you will, so will I.

Originally Posted by MrPedantic

Hello M56

The sentence seems fine to me. I don't see it as a true conditional, though; the 'if' seems almost to mean 'since'. The main clause expresses an inference, rather than a consequence. To my mind, the pattern of a true conditional sentence is:

1. If X happens, Y happens.

MrP

Conditionals can also be if X is true then so is Y. Yet, conditional" is not always a good name for some "if" structures.

[Steven D]

Originally Posted by M56

<However, I don't often, if at all, think of or hear "will x 2" sentences.>

I think that they do not appear much in AE.

Anyway, here's a song:


Singing I will if you will, so will I;

Singing I will if you will, so will I;

Singing I will if you will,

I will if you will,

I will if you will, so will I.

I don't think they appear much in AE either. However, I wouldn't dismiss them 100%. If I thought a student was advanced enough to deal with the explanation, I'd explain it. Otherwise, "don't use 'will' in an 'if' clause or as part of an adverb clause. That's what I stick to. But, you know, a very attentive learner might hear it or read it and then think, "but I thought he said that wasn't right". So, you know ... It depends on the student and circumstance.

After they will leave, we can talk. - No, uh uh. That doesn't work.

[MrPedantic]

Originally Posted by M56

Conditionals can also be if X is true then so is Y. Yet, conditional" is not always a good name for some "if" structures.

Yes, sorry, it was sloppy; my X/'it means that'/Y was meant to imply:

1. If X, we can infer Y.

e.g.

2. If you'll eat chicken feet, you'll eat anything.

(Non-conditional, as we can't properly say that 'eating chicken feet' is a condition of 'eating anything'.)

MrP

[Steven D]

Originally Posted by MrPedantic

Yes, sorry, it was sloppy; my X/'it means that'/Y was meant to imply:

1. If X, we can infer Y.

e.g.

2. If you'll eat chicken feet, you'll eat anything.

(Non-conditional, as we can't properly say that 'eating chicken feet' is a condition of 'eating anything'.)

MrP

We are all free to infer as we please.

If he eats chicken feet, he eats anything.

Originally Posted by MrPedantic

Yes, sorry, it was sloppy; my X/'it means that'/Y was meant to imply:

1. If X, we can infer Y.

e.g.

2. If you'll eat chicken feet, you'll eat anything.

(Non-conditional, as we can't properly say that 'eating chicken feet' is a condition of 'eating anything'.)

MrP

Conditional sentences are used to describe the consequences of a specific action, or the dependency between events or conditions.

[Steven D]

Originally Posted by MrPedantic

2. If you'll eat chicken feet, you'll eat anything.

(Non-conditional, as we can't properly say that 'eating chicken feet' is a condition of 'eating anything'.)

MrP

A snack of chicken feet falls into the category of "anything", however. It could be that eating chicken feet is a result of eating anything. Eating chicken feathers might be a result of eating anything as well.

[MrPedantic]

Originally Posted by M56

Conditional sentences are used to describe the consequences of a specific action, or the dependency between events or conditions.

I'm sorry, I was unclear. I'll see if I can find a form of words we can agree on. Perhaps:

Sometimes IF statements are used to present cause and effect:

1. If you do that again, I'll box your ears.

Sometimes, to express an inference:

2. If MrP was the man you saw in the car at 6am, he can't have been the person who stole my bike at 6.01.

Statements like #1 sit happily inside the traditional '0/1/2/3 conditional' framework; statements like #2 may not. (There are other kinds of IF statement too, of course.)

We can demonstrate that #2 isn't a type 2 conditional, by the way, by attempting to substitute 'were' for 'was': we find that the subjunctive doesn't work, because of the specific past time reference.

It seems to me that we can analyse the original sentence in one of two ways:

3. If he'll kill himself, he'll kill us.

a) It expresses an inference, in the style of #2, in which case the traditional 'types 0/1/2/3' rules don't apply; or, if you don't accept my distinction:

b) 'Will' does not primarily express futurity; it simply means 'is prepared to'. In which case, #3 can only be taken as a modalised type 1. (But I'd suggest that this is more problematical than treating the sentence as an inference that doesn't need to 'obey the rules'.)

MrP

[MrPedantic]

Originally Posted by X Mode

A snack of chicken feet falls into the category of "anything", however. It could be that eating chicken feet is a result of eating anything. Eating chicken feathers might be a result of eating anything as well.

Scenario:

I'm having lunch with a friend. To my distress, he orders chicken feet. I am particularly averse to chicken feet, though I know it's a great delicacy. He gets stuck in. I express my repugnance:

"If you'll eat chicken feet, you'll eat anything."

MrP