Three participles appearing in the same form.

Originally Posted by MrPedantic

Hello Cas

Older (1900-ish) grammarians would distinguish between the "past indefinite participle" (loved) and the "past perfect participle" (having loved).

I believe that participial adjectives in -ed are sometimes called "adjectival passives".

MrP

You believe correctly.


Mind, one of the tests for adjectival status suggests that the addition of "very/too" can disambiguate (if the adjective is gradable). So here, it doesn't work:

These Big Macs are very stolen.

but here, it does:

"The evening was very enjoyable."

The test, make this unambiguously an adjectival passive:

"He was too embarrassed by their behaviour to acknowledge that he was their son."

It also shows that adjectival passives alllow "by" complements.

But what about here? Adjectival, or verbal?

"The recruits were assembled outside the officers mess."

There, assembled cannot be modified by "very", but it does not mean it cannot be adjectival. It remains ambiguous.

Source: The Cambridge Grammar of the English Language. (Cambridge University Press)

Originally Posted by JJM Ballantyne

[FONT="Times New Roman"]I'm a great believer that we needlessly overcomplicate English and this discussion on participles seems to prove my point.

FONT]

What we discuss and what we finally teach can be two different things. If we were to follow your Mr Simplistic route, the whole discipline of Linguistics would be condemned to the garbage bin of wasted discovery. Try to open up your mind. Nothing here is certitude or finality.

[Roro]

Originally Posted by M56

Or Senegalise, non?

Close. Southeast of the continent. There's an island.

[AlainK]

Originally Posted by M56

The point is that we can use a cover term, such as past participle, but then we may need to open it up and describe its use. Terms such as "perfect passive" and "adjectival passive" help most of my students understand the use. That may not be the case for all students though.

I understand, but how old are your students, what level do you teach, and are they language specialists?

Alain

Originally Posted by Roro

Close. Southeast of the continent. There's an island.

Great, but what is your mother tongue?

Originally Posted by AlainK

I understand, but how old are your students, what level do you teach, and are they language specialists?

Alain

At present, my students are all either business people or university students. All over 20. But, even teenagers have asked again and again why we use the term past participle. We could make it easier by finding clearer terms.

[AlainK]

Originally Posted by M56

Great, but what is your mother tongue?

If it's Mauritius, it might be French, though he was probably taught in English at school.
If it's "la Réunion", it must be French, even if he's not a "zoreille".
In Mayotte, people speak French, and in the Comores islands, I'm not sure since it's a former French colony, but I don't know the official language...
I forgot Madagascar!
"Roro is maybe short for Randrianarimananalativo, or such a simple name as this one, I sometimes have pupils from Madagascar in my classes, none of the teachers call them by their family name

Alain

[AlainK]

Originally Posted by M56

At present, my students are all either business people or university students. All over 20. But, even teenagers have asked again and again why we use the term past participle. We could make it easier by finding clearer terms.

I see.
I don't know Spanish, except for a few words, but as we also have "participes passés" and "participes présents" in French, since they are used basically in the same contexts as in English, I've never had a question on why they are called this way.
For instance, when used as adjectives, younger pupils tend to use "interesting" instead of "interested" (e.g. "I'm interesting in visiting Chambord").
Gradually, they understand that "past" is associated with a passive form, and "present" with an active form, through simple examples.
They also notice that "have" is present, and "been" is past, thus making it easier for them to understand one of the major difficulties for French native speakers, the present perfect.
We've had a long tradition of using descriptive grammar in teaching languages in France, but this is changing...

[Casiopea]

Originally Posted by Roro

There are some criteria with regard to the treatment of 'grammaticalized form,' as far as I know. And we cannot apply them to 'remain+p.p.' form. I just wanted to say so.

I agree that "remained broken" is somewhat odd, at least to my ears, but what about?

Max: Dad, I need my bike fixed, again.

Max's father: Not unless you're going to foot the bill.

Max: I don't have any cash, Dad!

Max's father: I guess it will remain broken. (i.e., stay that way)

[JJM Ballantyne]

"If we were to follow your Mr Simplistic route, the whole discipline of Linguistics would be condemned to the garbage bin of wasted discovery."

Perhaps much of it should be. I've watched as "linguistics science" has become increasingly baffling, obfuscated and arcane over the years. Somewhere in that process, what once I found to be truly interesting and exciting has dissolved into an introspective cult of psychobabble.

"Try to open up your mind. Nothing here is certitude or finality."

Try opening yours; linguistics offers plenty of theories but very few certitudes.