"Me" Versus "I"

[rewboss]

Originally Posted by riverkid

Note though, that he actually explains his position. Rewboss, all you're doing is simply assuming that the prescriptive position is the right one.

No, Pinker uses a flawed analogy to explain his position, which weakens his argument considerably.

I do not -- please note this, because it is something you seem to have difficulty grasping: I do not -- simply assume that the "prescriptive position is the right one".

Pinker is not wrong. The distinction between "I" and "me" is the last remaining bastion of the old English case system which has broken down and is, if current trends are anything to go by, destined to die out altogether.

However, the fact remains that in this generation, people will judge you on your use of grammar. That may well be narrow-minded of the people who do that, but it does nevertheless happen. Since none of my students are potential political candidates who can launch their careers by wowing ordinary people and party functionaries with their magnificent rhetoric and natural charm, overriding any niggles about grammatical niceties, but instead have to write letters to prospective employers who may have old-fashioned (and, yes, ill-conceived and often plain wrong) ideas about grammar, I take the pragmatic approach.

Well, actually I don't have to. I teach Germans mostly, and the German case system is alive and well; the construction "between you and I" sounds completely stupid to them in any case. I just don't go out of my way to teach them what to them would be a bewildering and nonsensical rule, just another exception for them to learn.

Pragmatically:

"between you and me" -> never wrong
"between you and I" -> a sign of illiteracy in some people's eyes

Unfair? Yes. Can we do anything about it? No.

Let the language develop at its own pace. It won't progress any faster just because you think it should.

[riverkid]

Originally Posted by rewboss

No, Pinker uses a flawed analogy to explain his position, which weakens his argument considerably.

You just keep saying so, but you have made no attempt to explain why.

I do not -- please note this, because it is something you seem to have difficulty grasping: I do not -- simply assume that the "prescriptive position is the right one".

I find this rather humorous, Rewboss. You often go to great lengths defending the prescriptivist position, often on generalities alone, as in this posting. What's so astounding is that you now note that their position is suspect, at the least, but still you defend their right to continue misleading.

Pinker is not wrong. The distinction between "I" and "me" is the last remaining bastion of the old English case system which has broken down and is, if current trends are anything to go by, destined to die out altogether.

However, the fact remains that in this generation, people will judge you on your use of grammar. That may well be narrow-minded of the people who do that, but it does nevertheless happen. Since none of my students are potential political candidates who can launch their careers by wowing ordinary people and party functionaries with their magnificent rhetoric and natural charm, overriding any niggles about grammatical niceties, but instead have to write letters to prospective employers who may have old-fashioned (and, yes, ill-conceived and often plain wrong) ideas about grammar, I take the pragmatic approach.

Well, actually I don't have to. I teach Germans mostly, and the German case system is alive and well; the construction "between you and I" sounds completely stupid to them in any case. I just don't go out of my way to teach them what to them would be a bewildering and nonsensical rule, just another exception for them to learn.

Your prescriptive nature sneaking in again. Language is full of exceptions and one would think that you'd want to set the record straight about the most "flagrant" ones.

Pragmatically:

"between you and me" -> never wrong
"between you and I" -> a sign of illiteracy in some people's eyes

Unfair? Yes. Can we do anything about it? No.

Let the language develop at its own pace. It won't progress any faster just because you think it should.

It always amazes me that otherwise thinking folk can keep passing on this old tale. First, there is little, actually nothing more than anecdotal, scratch that, likely only repeats of this Chicken Little story, but it just keeps cropping up time after time.

And that you can, should suggest that this is unfair, but that we should allow these falsehoods to continue, your words, not mine, is absolutely astounding.

You asked, "Can we do anything about it?" and then took the easy, yet lazy approach and answered "No".

Yet, you took a proactive step in setting Anglika straight on the may/can issue. [I forgot to thank you for it, so thank you very much] Why would you not take that same approach across the board and deal honestly and straight up with every person who spreads falsehoods on language?

I'm more than willing to let language proceed at its own pace. Descriptivists are hardly the group seeking to prevent that. Can you not see the hypocrisy in what you've suggested?

Let those things that are "standard" be standard; there's nothing wrong with describing things in that fashion. But this "who speak correct standard English"; "it's just bad English."; and other such nonsensical things that often arise, yes, even here on this board, are just completely out of place for a language site that obviously is dedicated to finding the best information for students.

[rewboss]

Wha...?

Seriously, this is getting beyond a joke.

I am getting pretty darn tired of having to explain to you over and over again exactly what my position is, and yet you continue to set up straw men.

A case in point. I point out that, for my students, if I tell them that when two pronouns are coordinated native speakers use whatever case they damn well wish, but that that's not the case if you only have one pronoun, they will interpret that as an extra rule for them to learn, and one which, to them, makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. And then you tell me that I'm the one forcing nonsensical rules on them. Even if I taught them this... well, if it's not a rule I haven't clue what it is... if I taught them this and managed to do it without confusing the hell out of them in the process, they'd never obey that... whatever you call it... because it would be totally unnatural to them. They will continue to say "between you and me" because it exactly parallels what happens in German and -- and here's the point -- no native English speaker would see anything wrong with that.

So why teach them a... whatever... which to them is both confusing and totally unnecessary? And which, in the real world we actually live and work in, may even disadvantage them.

For somebody who sets such great store by descriptive grammar, you're being extremely prescriptive about it: if I don't teach my students what you, personally, believe to be correct, you say I'm spreading "falsehoods". How prescriptive can you get? I mean, how, exactly, am I making it harder for my students to learn English?

As for Pinker using a flawed analogy: If you're asking me why I think his analogy is flawed, I think it's flawed because he assumes that case and number behave in the same way; but that's by no means proven, and in no language I have ever studied is it so. They actually perform completely different functions, so it's hardly reasonable to think that what is true of number is automatically true of case.

And as for the can/may distinction, you may notice that I managed to argue my point without belittling Anglika or accusing her of spreading falsehoods or sleeping in class. It was hardly a proactive step on my part either: in my experience, hardly anyone these days insists on "may" for permission; but enough people insist on the "you and I/me" distinction to make it irresponsible of me to pretend otherwise.

"Between you and I" will soon become as acceptable as "Can I...?" is today. I'm not holding that back, but neither am I vain enough to believe that I can make it happen any faster. I teach that which will best serve the interests of my students: they demand it, the people paying for their lessons demand it, and the schools I work for demand it. I'm not putting them at a potential disadvantage on an obscure point of principle.

[iconoclast]

Methinks that William the Conqueror and Doctor Johnson are to blame for all this, despite Pinker's valiant but unconvincing effort to enlighten us. In French, you have to say 'C'est moi' - literally: It's me - with 'moi' being neither subject pronoun 'je' nor object pronoun 'me', as in 'Je t'aime', 'Tu m'aimes'. Unfortumately, 'moi' was (I think) the old dative pronoun - at any rate you have to use it after prepositions, as in 'avec moi' (with me), 'sans toi' (without you) - so how it came to serve as a free-standing pronoun beats me, but the correct one-word answer to 'Qui l'a fait?' (Who did it?) is 'Moi' (Me).

No one might have worried had Dr Johnson and his Classics-drenched pals not put a spanner in the works by insisting that after the verb 'be' subject pronoun must be used, for that's how it is in Latin, bequeathing to us the likes of 'It is I' - similar to German 'Ich bin es' (lit: I am it), something like which the pre-Conquest English must have said. Luckily, today we're only likely to hear this unnatural construct when it's uttered Pythonesquely tongue in cheek, but mighty damage has been wrought in the meantime, with much ink and breath wasted on the subjective and objective cases, on masculine pronouns and possessive adjectives being impossibly impersonal, on prepositions not ending sentences, on the infinitive's unsplittability, and what have you.

In the 20th century, Fowler in his Dictionary of Modern English Usage gave advice that was not only witty but also common-sense, but unfortunately he's been swamped by the language mavens Pinker - rightly - loves to deride. However, so far no one's mentioned hypercorrection as a cause of 'between you and I'. À la Pinker, we know that no one would ever say 'without I' or 'before I', but, having lost the feel for case in 'between you and me', they find it unnatural- and wrong-sounding, and cast about for and come up with a right-sounding alternative. Et voilà - 'between you and I' it is! Personally, I still like old-fashioned 'between you and me', but then I also think Standard English should be 'Has everybody brought their book?', so what do I know?