A case of Since

[Dany]

Originally Posted by shun

Dany,

Thank you so much.

I have specially noted that "I am talking about the same person", because I hope people will not give two different analyses to the same person.

Actually my problem is, if Ex1 denotes a finish, does Ex2 denote also a finish?
Ex1: Mary has visited Ocean Park three times.
Ex2: Mary has visited Ocean Park three times since 1987.

Grammars say that, with Since, an action continues up to now. But Ex2 seems not to be so. It seems to be a completion, same as Ex1. This puzzles me.

Shun

Hello Shun,

With "since" you say only, that it began in 1987. Since 1987 she has visited Ocean Park three times. But perhaps, she will visit the Ocean Park also in the next years. That's why it is (in both examples) not finished.
I hope that helps you.

Kind regards,
Dany

[shun]

But perhaps, she will visit the Ocean Park also in the next years. That's why it is (in both examples) not finished.

I am afraid you have twisted a little bit. If according to your logic, Simple Past "I ate dinner" is also not a finish, because I will eat dinner also tomorrow.

Most, if not all, agree that Ex1 is a finish. Mary has finished an amount of visitations.

The question is, in Ex2, how does Since link the visits to the present?

[Dany]

Originally Posted by shun

I am afraid you have twisted a little bit. If according to your logic, Simple Past "I ate dinner" is also not a finish, because I will eat dinner also tomorrow.

Most, if not all, agree that Ex1 is a finish. Mary has finished an amount of visitations.

The question is, in Ex2, how does Since link the visits to the present?

Hello Shun,

You don't make it easy to my
I try to explain it to you.

"I ate dinner yesterday" = Simple Past.
"I eat dinner every day" = Simple Present. You do it every day, so it is usual.
"I have eaten dinner since one hour". You are still eating, you haven't finished eating.

The usage of Present Perfect:
1.) You use Present Perfect when you just finished something.
Example: I have just finished my homework.

2.) You use Present Perfect when somehting happens in the past or you do something in the past and it is not finished.
Example: He has written three novels since 1990. (The three novels are written, so that part has finished. Perhaps he will write the fourth novel next year, that's because it isn't finished.)

Words like
since, for, already, just, not....yet, yet
say to you, that you have to use Present Perfect.

I hope you understand it now. If not, perhaps "casiopea", "Tdol" or someone else can help you

Kind regards,
Dany

[shun]

Thank you very much.

Actually my problem is, if Ex1 denotes a finish, does Ex2 denote also a finish?
Ex1: Mary has visited Ocean Park three times.
Ex2: Mary has visited Ocean Park three times since 1987.

Best wishes,

[Tdol]

In both cases, the three visits are finished, but she can always go again. (If she were actually there, it would be possible to use the form as well- imagine a TV reporter interviewing her at the Park, introducing her- 'Mary has visted three times (since 1987)...') However, without further context, I would assume that the visits are over, but the potential to go again remains, unaffected by the use of 'since'.

[Dany]

Originally Posted by tdol

In both cases, the three visits are finished, but she can always go again. (If she were actually there, it would be possible to use the form as well- imagine a TV reporter interviewing her at the Park, introducing her- 'Mary has visted three times (since 1987)...') However, without further context, I would assume that the visits are over, but the potential to go again remains, unaffected by the use of 'since'.

Hello Tdol,

I think, that this is a really good explanation Thanks.

[shun]

Originally Posted by tdol

In both cases, the three visits are finished, but she can always go again..... However, without further context, I would assume that the visits are over, but the potential to go again remains, unaffected by the use of 'since'.

Tdol,

I am afraid that yours is a strange suggestion, for it goes against the usual agreement that Since denotes something started from the past and up to now, rather than "the three visits are finished". It is agreed by most, if now not all, that Since is not linked to a finish. According to your suggestion, we have to ask for "further context" every time if one uses Since:
Mary: "My mother has lived in HK since 1987."
John: "Yes? Where does she live now?"
John has to ask because, according to your suggestion, living here can be finished. Coated in your words: Without further context, he would assume that the living is over, but the potential to live there remains, unaffected by the use of 'since'.

It is a shame that we use tense, we tell the time, and most of all, we use only one tense for Since, but we finally cannot tell the action finished or not. Is that what we want?

I am afraid we had better fix up a minor problem (my question), so as to fit the major rule (of Since), and not the other way around. We shall not, because my small doubt, forsake our agreement that, with Since, the action is not finished up to now:
Ex: Mary has lived in Macau since 1987.
Ex: John has learned Japanese since he lived in Japan.

We have to agree, therefore, that the action with Since is one that have started in the past and up to now.
Ex1: Mary has visited Ocean Park three times.
Ex2: Mary has visited Ocean Park three times since 1987.
How to explain it, or whether or not we can explain it, is only a small issue.

I still find it difficult to explain how these visits, with Since 1987, are up to now.

My humble opinion.

[Dany]

Originally Posted by shun

Mary: "My mother has lived in HK since 1987."

Sorry, but in this statement, it is clear, that she still live in HK.
"Since 1987" says to you, that she moved to HK in 1987 (it begans in the past) and since that time she lives there (till now / future). She still lives there.

Originally Posted by shun

John: "Yes? Where does she live now?"

That's why John would never ask, where she lives now.

Originally Posted by shun

Ex: Mary has lived in Macau since 1987.

Mary moved to Macau in 1987. Since that time, she lived there, and she still lives there. (She moved in in the past and she still lives there).

Originally Posted by shun

Ex: John has learned Japanese since he lived in Japan.

Befor he had gone to Japan, he couldn't speak Japanese. At any time he moved to Japan, and since that time (it begans in the past), he had learned Japanese. He still lives in Japan.

Originally Posted by shun

We have to agree, therefore, that the action with Since is one that have started in the past and up to now.
Ex1: Mary has visited Ocean Park three times.

The three times she went to Ocean Park are finished. She isn't still there. She went back to home. But perhaps she will visit Ocean Park next year again. So the visits are not finished. Unless she is dead. Then she can't visit Ocean Park again, and all is finished. In that case you have to use Simple Past.

Originally Posted by shun

Ex2: Mary has visited Ocean Park three times since 1987.
How to explain it, or whether or not we can explain it, is only a small issue.

The three times she went to Ocean Park since 1987 are finished. You can suppose that "since 1987" means, that her first trip to Ocean Park was in 1987. It is not important to know, when she visited Ocean Park the first time. The three trips to Ocean Park are finished. But perhaps she will visit Ocean Park next year again. So the visits are not finished. Unless she is dead. Then she can't visit Ocean Park again, and all is finished. In that case you have to use Simple Past.


Some words to Present Perfect:
You have to use Present Perfect when something starts in the Past and is not finished know, or it is just finished.
Example:
He lives in Japan since 1987.
He moved to Japan in 1987 (he moved in in the past). "Since" means that he has lived there since that time. Since that time he haven't lived anywhere else. He still lives there.


Kind regards,
Dany

[shun]

Originally Posted by Dany

The three times she went to Ocean Park are finished. She isn't still there. She went back to home. But perhaps she will visit Ocean Park next year again. So the visits are not finished.

If that is the logic you insist, there is no past or finish anymore. Is Simple Past "I ate dinner" a finished action? No, according to your logic, "perhaps I will eat again", the dinner eating is not finished.

Is "I have been to Japan" a finish? No, according to your logic, "perhaps I will go there again", it is not finished.

If according to your logic, may you please tell me a finish?

Kind regards,
Shun

[Dany]

Originally Posted by shun

If that is the logic you insist, there is no past or finish anymore. Is Simple Past "I ate dinner" a finished action?

You can't say "I ate dinner" without any date. You have to add "yesterday" or "last week" or so on. Less it emanate from the context, that you did it in the past.

Originally Posted by shun

No, according to your logic, "perhaps I will eat again", the dinner eating is not finished.

To eat dinner, is a usual thing. That's why you have to use Simple Present.
You can also say: Mary visits Ocean Park every year. She usually visit Ocean Park, that's why you have to use Simple Present.

Originally Posted by shun

Is "I have been to Japan" a finish? No, according to your logic, "perhaps I will go there again", it is not finished.

I see, that you understand it.

Originally Posted by shun

If according to your logic, may you please tell me a finish?

They lived in Oxford since 1987, but they moved to London yesterday.


Kind regards,
Dany