Present perfect override

[albeit]

"We have had a very severe dust-storm all across the eastern states a few days ago... ."

It's often said that the present perfect doesn't collocate with past time adverbials. That certainly is generally true, but there are times when that strong prohibition is set aside.

Here is one such example, above. I had another excellent one from Tony Blair but my other computer crashed and I've lost it. Perhaps I can find it ,

[... oops, I've been told that no one is supposed to use a modal/semi-modal to comment on anything tentative. We have to wait until all the facts are in.]

I will look on the internet for it. Michael Swan also discusses this in his Practical English Usage.

[PROESL]

Originally Posted by albeit

"We have had a very severe dust-storm all across the eastern states a few days ago... ."

It's often said that the present perfect doesn't collocate with past time adverbials. That certainly is generally true, but there are times when that strong prohibition is set aside.

Here is one such example, above. I had another excellent one from Tony Blair but my other computer crashed and I've lost it. Perhaps I can find it ,

[... oops, I've been told that no one is supposed to use a modal/semi-modal to comment on anything tentative. We have to wait until all the facts are in.]

I will look on the internet for it. Michael Swan also discusses this in his Practical English Usage.

I hear the same thing on the news from time to time - the present perfect used with a time adverbial that points to a finished time.

[albeit]

Originally Posted by PROESL

I hear the same thing on the news from time to time - the present perfect used with a time adverbial that points to a finished time.

Yup, the present perfect of current relevance/importance/hot news sometimes overrides that particular prohibition.

But it's doesn't happen often and the reluctance to use pointed past time adverbials is great.

[PROESL]

Originally Posted by albeit

Yup, the present perfect of current relevance/importance/hot news sometimes overrides that particular prohibition.

But it's doesn't happen often and the reluctance to use pointed past time adverbials is great.

I know. That's why it's not worth talking about unless a student asks about it. It's possible, but not likely that an ELL will hear an example of this, take note of it, and come to class or a lesson prepared to ask about what she or he heard on the news. It's possible, but it's not a strong possibility.

Given that such structures are unusual, learners should avoid using them anyway.

As for the "discussion" on this, it's on page 443. I've read it before and have found again, easily enough.

[albeit]

Originally Posted by PROESL

I know. That's why it's not worth talking about unless a student asks about it. It's possible, but not likely that an ELL will hear an example of this, take note of it, and come to class or a lesson prepared to ask about what she or he heard on the news. It's possible, but it's not a strong possibility.

I disagree. When students have reached a certain level, you tell them of these possibilities so that they are prepared to deal with them. Why hide something that can be explained so easily.

Originally Posted by PROESL

Given that such structures are unusual, learners should avoid using them anyway.

I agree fully.

[PROESL]

Originally Posted by albeit

I disagree. When students have reached a certain level, you tell them of these possibilities so that they are prepared to deal with them. Why hide something that can be explained so easily.



I agree fully.

On second thought, I suppose I could modify my statement. I could speak of this sort of thing with the right students at the right time even if it weren't raised as a question in the first place. Each minute is money, however, and they want practical information. I know what you mean, though.

[konungursvia]

That's one of the important points to remember. Learning a foreign language is a collosal undertaking. In my experience, many students prefer simple do's and don't's in certain situations, rather than having to read 50-odd posts about bent rules, exceptions, less common cases, and the like.

We have to try to judge what the learner is asking for, or needs, at times.

[PROESL]

Originally Posted by konungursvia

That's one of the important points to remember. Learning a foreign language is a collosal undertaking. In my experience, many students prefer simple do's and don't's in certain situations, rather than having to read 50-odd posts about bent rules, exceptions, less common cases, and the like.

We have to try to judge what the learner is asking for, or needs, at times.

Definitely. I agree. I really don't think I would bring up this point in class or a lesson just for the hell of it.



As for posting, I would say that it's inevitable that some student or learner questions will turn into discussions. I think the ones that have not turned into discussions by far outnumber the relatively small number of student or learner questions that have turned into discussions. Also, the idea of a forum is get more than one viewpoint. Wha 'd' y' want for nothin'? Know what I mean? It's a free service. So if we express our opinions or open a student or learner question up for discussion, I don't think there's any harm done.