Progressive (out of word boundaries) Assimilation of "s" into "ʃ" in context.

[Ermaks]

Greetings!

Take a look at this sentence :

Well, supermarkets care. So much so that they....

a bit of context : Supermarkets care what their customers buy...

The transcription :

/weɫ/ su:pəma:kɪts keə//səʊ mʌtʃ səʊ / ðət ðeɪ.../

If there is assimilation :

/weɫ/ su:pəma:kɪts keə//səʊ mʌtʃ ʃəʊ / ðət ðeɪ.../

But it sounds as if it was saying "so much show" :

Well, supermarkets care. So much show that they....


Is it ok if there is assimilation??

Ernesto

[5jj]

What makes you think there is assimilation here?

[Ermaks]

What makes you think there is assimilation here?

It's a kind of assimilation for the /s/ to become /ʃ/ whenever it is followed by /ʃ/ or /j/, which is called regressive assimilation(the first sound is affected by the second one). For example :

Her voice shook /hə vɔɪs ʃʊk/ --> assimilation / hə vɔɪʃ ʃʊk/

/ðɪs jɪə/ ---> / ðɪʃ jɪə/

/ðɪs jʌŋ mæn/ ----> /ðɪʃ jʌŋ mæn/


Sometimes it can be, however, progressive, so that the first element affects the second one as in :

bookish style /bʊkɪʃ staɪl/ /bʊkɪʃ ʃtaɪl/

Therefore, wouldn't be the same case for "Much so", the difference here is that the /ʃ/ plays the role of an affricate with /t/ --> /tʃ/.

[5jj]

I agree with your examples of regressive assimilation. I have not heard the progressive assimilation you refer to in your last example, bookish style. It doesn't happen in my dialect.

[mara_ce]

Sometimes it can be, however, progressive, so that the first element affects the second one as in :
bookish style /bʊkɪʃ staɪl/ /bʊkɪʃ ʃtaɪl/
Therefore, wouldn't be the same case for "Much so", the difference here is that the /ʃ/ plays the role of an affricate with /t/ --> /tʃ/.

Hola Ernesto,

I haven´t heard of that assimilation either. According to the book “English Transcription Course” by Maria Lecumberri and J. A. Maidment, there´s only one type of progressive assimilation:

"Alveolar syllabic nasal progressive place assimilation

The alveolar syllabic nasal /n/ may become bilabial /m/ or velar /ŋ/ when preceded by a bilabial or velar plosive in the same word and followed by a consonant in the same word or the next word or by a pause.
Examples:

open /əʊpən/ - - > /əʊpn/ - - > /əʊpm/

bacon /beɪkən/ - - > /beɪkn/ - - > /beɪkŋ/"

[Ermaks]

I agree with your examples of regressive assimilation. I have not heard the progressive assimilation you refer to in your last example, bookish style. It doesn't happen in my dialect.

Hola Ernesto,

I haven´t heard of that assimilation either. According to the book “English Transcription Course” by Maria Lecumberri and J. A. Maidment, there´s only one type of progressive assimilation:

"Alveolar syllabic nasal progressive place assimilation"

Hi there and sorry for the delay.After reading that you haven't heard of such assimilation, I started to do some online research about it.To my surprise, I didn't manage to actually find anything about progressive assimilation for the /s/ to /ʃ/. I went through quite many Phonetics & Phonology related websites, but didn't find anything about it.

I took a look at the Longman Pronunciation Dictionary's Assimilation note and it states that it has only got regressive assimilation.

However, the notes I was given by my Phonetic's teacher included this type of assimilation.

I think... I'm just going to ask around about the existence of such assimilation. Let's see what does John Wells say about it .

Thanks for the replies. I'll let you know if I find anything about the matter.

Ernesto

[5jj]

.To my surprise, I didn't manage to actually find anything about progressive assimilation for the /s/ to /ʃ/. I went through quite many Phonetics & Phonology related websites, but didn't find anything about it.[...]

However, the notes I was given by my Phonetics teacher included this type of assimilation.

There is /s/ to /ʃ/ assimilation - as in 'this shop'. That is not what your original question was about.

[Ermaks]

There is /s/ to /ʃ/ assimilation - as in 'this shop'. That is not what your original question was about.

I know there is. But that's ,again, regressive assimilation, and I was talking about Progressive assimilation, where the first sound influences the second one to change.

Nevertheless, after asking around, I came to the conclusion that it is not that this type of assimilation just doesn't exist, as John Wells states : "This type of assimilation is not commonly heard,as far as I am aware."

I asked the same to "La mansion del ingles", and I was given the same answer.

Well, I guess that says it all, doesn't it ?

Regards

E

[Soup]

The transcription :

/weɫ/ su:pəma:kɪts keə//səʊ mʌtʃ səʊ / ðət ðeɪ.../

If there is assimilation :

/weɫ/ su:pəma:kɪts keə//səʊ mʌtʃ ʃəʊ / ðət ðeɪ.../

But it sounds as if it was saying "so much show" :

Well, supermarkets care. So much show that they....


Is it ok if there is assimilation??

If you are asking if assimilation is possible, notably RP: Progressive assimilation (a common term used in Phonology); e.g., Shut [tʃ]our mouth!; Church [ʃ]treet Source: p.91, then, yes, it is possible, but it is rare as it occurs only in certain environments. Let's take a closer look at the above examples to see if your example (səʊ mʌtʃ ʃəʊ) fits the pattern:

• shut your -> shut [tʃ]r
  

In that example, [t] is articulated yet unreleased (this will be important later on) and /y/ becomes [tʃ] by progressive assimilation. Then again, we expect that from /y/, a sonorant, but not from /s/, a consonant. That is, we expect /y/ to strengthen, but not /s/. Which is to say, the example above does not provide support enough for mʌtʃ ʃəʊ.

In looking now at the second example, below, wherein s becomes [ʃ], a perfect example of progressive assimilation across a word-boundary:

• church street -> church [ʃt]reet

This is what I hear: word-final <ch> is articulated, yet unreleased, and /s/ becomes [ʃ]. We saw this pattern with the first example as well. In applying that to your example (səʊ mʌtʃ ʃəʊ), that is, articulating word-final <ch> yet leaving it unreleased, it doesn't sound like English.

In short, while progressive assimilation does indeed occur across a word-boundary in English, although rarely, your example doesn't fit the pattern.

[5jj]

In looking now at the second example, below, wherein s becomes [ʃ], a perfect example of progressive assimilation across a word-boundary:

• church street -> church [ʃt]reet

This is what I hear: word-final <ch> is articulated, yet unreleased, and /s/ becomes [ʃ]. We saw this pattern with the first example as well. In applying that to your example (səʊ mʌtʃ ʃəʊ), that is, articulating word-final <ch> yet leaving it unreleased, it doesn't sound like English.

Interesting. Thanks for that, Soup. I had not encountered the 'church street' example before - or at least, not thought about it. My apologies, Ermaks, for my misinformation in post #4. It appears that /bʊkɪʃ staɪl/ /bʊkɪʃ ʃtaɪl/ is possible.

I do, however, have a problem with 'much so'. I agree with you, Soup, that assimilation there doesn't sound like English. What I don't see is why. It seems to me that in both 'church' and 'much', the word-final /ch/ is unreleased.