up in smoke

Do you hear it where you live? What does it mean?

probus said:

Do you hear it where you live? What does it mean?

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The exact meaning would depend on the context.

fivejedjon said:

The exact meaning would depend on the context.

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Could you elaborate please?

probus said:

Could you elaborate please?

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If my house goes up in smoke, it is completely burnt out. If my career plans go up in smoke, they disappear/are destroyed

probus said:

Could you elaborate please?

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I'm surprised that 5jj let this pass. The point of his first answer was to say that no word has a single and unchanging meaning without a context; and it's the job of someone who wants to understand a word to explain the context where s/he has met it. 5jj was saying 'We can't tell you without knowing more.' To respond to that with 'Could you elaborate please?' might be interpreted as disrespectful.

You will presumably have guessed from 5jj's second answer that the common element in those two meanings is 'destruction'. If the usage is concrete, the smoke is real and comes from an explosion or a fire of some sort. If the usage is figurative, the smoke is metaphorical. (The two, of course, can be mixed together: 'As I watched the letter curl up and burst into flames in the dying embers of the fire I was seeing my dreams go up in smoke.' [Which reminds me: you can also say 'go up in flames' - usually, I think, with a more definite concrete meaning.)

b

I sincerely apologize. I intended no disrespect at all.

BobK said:

I'm surprised that 5jj let this pass. The point of his first answer was to say that no word has a single and unchanging meaning without a context; and it's the job of someone who wants to understand a word to explain the context where s/he has met it. 5jj was saying 'We can't tell you without knowing more.' To respond to that with 'Could you elaborate please?' might be interpreted as disrespectful.

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Probus caught me at one of those incredibly rare moments when I was feeling sweet-natured and tolerant. Treasure it.

probus said:

I sincerely apologize. I intended no disrespect at all.

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I am sure you didn't, and it's not a problem.

However, it was useful that Bob pointed this out. Sometimes one can give offence in a different language/culture without any intention of doing so.

Asking someone to elaborate, complete with the word "please", is disrespectful? What's this forum for?

Vidor said:

Asking someone to elaborate, complete with the word "please", is disrespectful? What's this forum for?

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It is not, in itself, disrespectful. Read BobK's first paragraph again. Note the he wrote that it "might be interpreted as disrespectful", not that it was disrespectful.

Bob probably assumed (as I did, though I ignored it) that probus had reacted to my mention of context by asking me to elaborate, i.e give a full answer to his original question. If, so, it was not very tactful. It is of course possible that Probus merely asked me to elaborate on what I meant by The exact answer would depend on the context. If that was the case, then Bob addressed that point in the first three lines of his answer.

I have pointed out to some people that the use of 'kindly' as a synonym for 'please' gives a rather officious tone to the message that the writer almost certainly did not intend. I feel that learners can benefit from having this pointed out to them.

Vidor said:

Asking someone to elaborate, complete with the word "please", is disrespectful? What's this forum for?

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I did not say it was disrespectful to ask a question politely (although using polite words is far from being the basis of politeness). What I said was it 'might be interpreted as disrespectful'.

The implication, when a senior adviser has told you you need to say more, of asking briefly what he means, is 'My time [in framing the question in an answerable fashion, as requested] is more valuable than yours. Go ahead and explain every conceivable nuance; I'm not going to spend any more time on this until you've done some real work.'

Obviously, the OP didn't mean this - which is why I said it might be seen as disrespectful. I'm sorry if my language was too sophisticated to avoid giving offence. ;-)

b

not a teacher

BobK said:

I did not say it was disrespectful to ask a question politely (although using polite words is far from being the basis of politeness). What I said was it 'might be interpreted as disrespectful'.

The implication, when a senior adviser has told you you need to say more, of asking briefly what he means, is 'My time [in framing the question in an answerable fashion, as requested] is more valuable than yours. Go ahead and explain every conceivable nuance; I'm not going to spend any more time on this until you've done some real work.'

Obviously, the OP didn't mean this - which is why I said it might be seen as disrespectful. I'm sorry if my language was too sophisticated to avoid giving offence. ;-)

b

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It's a message board. People talk to each other. I remain, to use a British term, gobsmacked that someone could imagine a request to answer at further length to be disrepectful. And to be perfectly candid, you aren't a "senior advisor", you are someone using a message board. This is not a teacher-student setting and the people who come here are not in a subordinate relationship to you. Their time is not more valuable than yours, but it is also not less valuable. I can't begin to imagine how a request to elaborate on a message board posting could ever be interpreted as disrespectful.

Finally, your language wasn't too precise, and I didn't fail to understand you. I don't agree, which is different.

Re: not a teacher

Vidor said:

And to be perfectly candid, you aren't a "senior advisor", you are someone using a message board. This is not a teacher-student setting and the people who come here are not in a subordinate relationship to you.

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I think that Bob was referring to me when he used the term 'senior adviser'. He was using the word 'senior' not in the sense of 'superior', but in the way it is used in 'senior citizen' - 'older', 'someone who has been around longer'. As, at the time, I had posted over 3,000 answers in this forum, it was not an unreasonable choice of words.

Had he been referring to himself, I don't think it would be totally inappropriate. He has written over 10,000 posts, and is a moderator.

This is not just a message board - it is an 'Ask a Teacher' column, and many of those asking questions come to us precisely because we are, or were, teachers. Those of us who spend time answering questions do NOT expect gratitude or deference - we do it because we enjoy it. However, fortunately very rarely, some people phrase their questions in a way that makes it appear as if we were there only to satisfy their demands (I am not talking about probus). We are only human, and we react sometimes.

I try to accord others respect, and I like to be treated with respect. By that word I mean simply the natural polite behaviour that makes human relationships more civilised. It is indeed possible that Bob and I were a little over-sensitive on the occasion we are talking about - I did say we are only human. However, everything was cleared up quickly, until you chose to express your disapproval of Bob's words - which, of course you are free to do; and I am free to respond.

I was just reading this thread and I found it really interesting. I think this is an excellent example of how language and culture are really inseparable. Not to mention interpretation.

Am I correct to assume that you are all native English speakers? Personally I find I real life misunderstandings can teach me far more about communication than many textbooks. Needless to say these were really useful posts and funny enough unintentional, eh?

SanMar said:

Am I correct to assume that you are all native English speakers?

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If you look above the top right-hand corner of the posts, you will see our home country, native language, and the type of member we claim to be - teacher, academic, etc.

Thanks ...my bad.

Re: not a teacher

Vidor said:

It's a message board. People talk to each other. I remain, to use a British term, gobsmacked that someone could imagine a request to answer at further length to be disrepectful. And to be perfectly candid, you aren't a "senior advisor", you are someone using a message board. This is not a teacher-student setting and the people who come here are not in a subordinate relationship to you. Their time is not more valuable than yours, but it is also not less valuable. I can't begin to imagine how a request to elaborate on a message board posting could ever be interpreted as disrespectful.

Finally, your language wasn't too precise, and I didn't fail to understand you. I don't agree, which is different.

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Words fail me. This forum is called Ask a Teacher: that context establishes the relative seniority of questioners and teachers. This is where I bow out. :-|

b

Re: not a teacher

BobK said:

Words fail me. This forum is called Ask a Teacher: that context establishes the relative seniority of questioners and teachers. This is where I bow out. :-|

b

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It isn't a classroom. These are not your students. This isn't your job. The questioners aren't getting scholastic credit. This is something you and they are doing in your spare time. And this forum isn't called Ask a Teacher; that is a separate subforum. I don't go into Ask a Teacher because I'm not one. The non-native speakers that come here should not be expected to regard themselves in a subordinate relationship with you, because they aren't.

And with that I bow out as well, because I've said my peace and I don't wish this to become an extended argument.

I think you left in the nick of time, Bob.

Re: not a teacher

To get the thread back on track, I hear up in smoke used in British English as an idiom to describe plans, dreams, ambitions, etc, going wrong or disappearing.