A 24-year-old soldier has been killed in a road accident last night.

[milan2003_07]

We normally use the present perfect tense when we're focusing on the present details rather than the past details. When there is some finished time, past simple is usually used. However, the Oxford Grammar Book by Michael Swan offers some examples of using the present perfect when the past tense should have been used according to the general rules.

1. A 24-year-old soldier has been killed in a road accident last night.
2. Police have arrested more than 100 suspected drug traffickers in raids throughout the country on Friday and Saturday.

If I didn't know about these exceptions (?), I would have used the past simple in both sentences (was killed, arrested).

What do you think about these sentences regarding the usage of the present perfect? Do you consider it appropriate? The book says the sentences are OK, but I'm still puzzled...

 

[teechar]

This question (with those two exact sentences) has been doing the rounds on the Web. I take it you've already read the discussions on the other sites, right?

 

[milan2003_07]

This question (with those two exact sentences) has been doing the rounds on the Web. I take it you've already read the discussions on the other sites, right?

No, I haven't read any discussions elsewhere. I've run across these sentences for the first time in the Oxford Grammar Book, as I've written above. Then I decided to post them in our forum looking forward to receiving comments.

 

[teechar]

They're not good examples. I would use the past simple in both.

 

[emsr2d2]

No, I haven't read any discussions elsewhere. I've run I ran across these sentences for the first time in the Oxford Grammar Book, as I've written above. Then I decided to post them in our forum. I'm looking forward to receiving comments.

Note my corrections above. You need to work on your use of the past simple. In this post and in your other thread, I've had to change an incorrect instance of the present perfect to the (correct) past simple.

 

[milan2003_07]

They're not good examples. I would use the past simple in both.

It's strange that grammar books offer not very good examples.... Anyway, I'm therefore asking native speakers here to make sure tenses are used in the correct way. I think I have some feeling that some phrases have to be checked no matter where they are comimng from.

 

[teechar]

It's strange that grammar books offer not very good examples....

Even the best of grammar books are not infallible.

 

[milan2003_07]

No, I haven't read any discussions elsewhere. I've run I ran across these sentences for the first time in the Oxford Grammar Book, as I've written above. Then I decided to post them in our forum. I'm looking forward to receiving comments.

Could you please explain why the present perfect is wrong in the first phrase. It seems to me I'm talking about the situation in the past that is related to the present. Also, there is "for the first time".

 

[5jj]

1. A 24-year-old soldier has been killed in a road accident last night.
2. Police have arrested more than 100 suspected drug traffickers in raids throughout the country on Friday and Saturday.

I'd see these two as examples of conflating two ideas:

1. A 24-year-old soldier has been killed in a road accident. He was killed last night.
2. Police have arrested more than 100 suspected drug traffickers in raids throughout the country. The arrests were made on Friday and Saturday.

These things happen not uncommonly in speech, They are far less common in writing, when we have more time to think.

 

[jutfrank]

Swan explains this usage clearly enough. I've bolded the relevant sentence:

5 present perfect with past time expressions

Grammars usually say that the present perfect cannot be used together with expressions of finished time - we can say I have seen him or I saw him yesterday, but not I have seen him yesterday. In fact, such structures are unusual but not impossible (though learners should avoid them). They often occur in brief news items, where space is limited and there is pressure to announce the news and give the details in the same clause. Here are some real examples taken from news broadcasts, newspaper articles, advertisements, letters and conversations.

Police have arrested more than 900 suspected drugs traffickers in raids throughout the country on Friday and Saturday.
A 24-year-old soldier has been killed in a road accident last night.

Michael Swan, Practical English Usage, p.49

 

[Skrej]

These are so commonly used in newscasts (at least in AmE) that it took me a bit to figure out what the purported issue was. I had to re-read several times before I even registered the specific time 'conflict' with the present perfect.

Even now they don't bother me in the slightest.

 

[milan2003_07]

Swan explains this usage clearly enough. I've bolded the relevant sentence:

5 present perfect with past time expressions

Grammars usually say that the present perfect cannot be used together with expressions of finished time - we can say I have seen him or I saw him yesterday, but not I have seen him yesterday. In fact, such structures are unusual but not impossible (though learners should avoid them). They often occur in brief news items, where space is limited and there is pressure to announce the news and give the details in the same clause. Here are some real examples taken from news broadcasts, newspaper articles, advertisements, letters and conversations.

Police have arrested more than 900 suspected drugs traffickers in raids throughout the country on Friday and Saturday.
A 24-year-old soldier has been killed in a road accident last night.

Michael Swan, Practical English Usage, p.49

Well, yes, I'm a learner and will probably always be one as I'm not a native speeaker of English. However, I believe my level has long been high enough in order to avoid confusion when some of the rules I've been taught have exceptions.

Yes, quite long time ago I perceived it as a postulate that the present perfect isn't used with expressions of finished time. Now I see that it's still possible.

"They often occur in brief news items, where space is limited and there is pressure to announce the news and give the details in the same clause."
Interesting explanation. Could you please write some examples you can think of where we use the present perfect in a non-conventional way?

 

[milan2003_07]

These are so commonly used in newscasts (at least in AmE) that it took me a bit to figure out what the purported issue was. I had to re-read several times before I even registered the specific time 'conflict' with the present perfect.

Even now they don't bother me in the slightest.

Dear Skrej,

As an Americal native speaker of English can you provide just a couple of examples similar to what I've posted here? You're saying that these constructions are not uncommon in AE. I would be very grateful for that.

 

[jutfrank]

This is the entire list from Swan's PEU:

Police have arrested more than 900 suspected drugs traffickers in raids throughout the country on Friday and Saturday.
A 24-year-old soldier has been killed in a road accident last night.
The horse's trainer has had a winner here yesterday. . . . indicating that the geological activity has taken place a very long time ago.
Perhaps what has helped us to win eight major awards last year alone . . .
I have stocked the infirmary cupboard only yesterday.
I am pleased to confirm that Lloyds Bank . . . has opened a Home Loan account for you on 19th May.

They're all authentic examples of use.

 

[milan2003_07]

This is the entire list from Swan's PEU:

Police have arrested more than 900 suspected drugs traffickers in raids throughout the country on Friday and Saturday.
A 24-year-old soldier has been killed in a road accident last night.
The horse's trainer has had a winner here yesterday. . . . indicating that the geological activity has taken place a very long time ago.
Perhaps what has helped us to win eight major awards last year alone . . .
I have stocked the infirmary cupboard only yesterday.
I am pleased to confirm that Lloyds Bank . . . has opened a Home Loan account for you on 19th May.

They're all authentic examples of use.

What do you personally think about these examples you've provided? Are they all fine? As we can see, each of the sentences above contains a word indicating some finished time point (Friday, Saturday, last night,...). In these cases we usually use the past simple. However, here we use the present perfect and maybe these are exceptions?

Teechar has said that "Even the best of grammar books are not infallible". I'm still thinking why the Oxford Grammar Book offers disputable examples of tense usage...

 

[5jj]

I'm still thinking why the Oxford Grammar Book offers disputable examples of tense usage...

They are not disputable. They are examples of things that native speakers have actually written.

 

[5jj]

I'm therefore asking native speakers here to make sure tenses are used in the correct way.

The 'correct way' is the way native speakers use them. Swan's advice, as quoted by jutfrank, is sound:


Grammars usually say that the present perfect cannot be used together with expressions of finished time - we can say I have seen him or I saw him yesterday, but not I have seen him yesterday. In fact, such structures are unusual but not impossible (though learners should avoid them).

 

[Skrej]

Dear Skrej,

As an Americal native speaker of English can you provide just a couple of examples similar to what I've posted here? You're saying that these constructions are not uncommon in AE. I would be very grateful for that.

Any examples I would make up wouldn't be authentic in the sense that I'm not reporting news. I tried a quick search of some news reports but gave up after a few minutes. I don't really have the time to spend hours combing for more, when you've got several authentic examples already. Sorry.

If you want more, you'll have to spend a few hours reviewing old newscast videos or transcripts of them.

I grew up on a farm where produce and livestock loss to wildlife was a regular occurrence. At one point I probably told somebody else something like "Well, we've lost half a dozen hens to the badger last night."

"Looks like we've had coons in the melon patch again last night."

Those are just hypothetical, but it's likely I uttered something comparable over the years.

 

[milan2003_07]

Any examples I would make up wouldn't be authentic in the sense that I'm not reporting news. I tried a quick search of some news reports but gave up after a few minutes. I don't really have the time to spend hours combing for more, when you've got several authentic examples already. Sorry.

If you want more, you'll have to spend a few hours reviewing old newscast videos or transcripts of them.

I grew up on a farm where produce and livestock loss to wildlife was a regular occurrence. At one point I probably told somebody else something like "Well, we've lost half a dozen hens to the badger last night."

"Looks like we've had coons in the melon patch again last night."

Those are just hypothetical, but it's likely I uttered something comparable over the years.

Now I've read several examples when the present perfect is used (has been used) with expressions like "last night". As for me, I was taught that we needed to use only the past simple in the sentences above. Now I know that the present perfect in such phrases is unusual, but not impossible. Also, I've found out that English learners (presumably, at low levels) should avoid such usages.

Is the conclusion that the present perfect can still be used with "last night", "on Friday and Saturday", etc.? What is the rule then? I suppose that such sentences are exceptions. If so, how can I make sure that the present perfect is correct in some cases with the words like "last night", "ago" etc.?

"Well, we've lost half a dozen hens to the badger last night."
"Looks like we've had coons in the melon patch again last night."

Why have you chosen the present perfect here? Could you please try to explain as I'm very interested (I realize that you've chosen the present perfect based on your language intuition)? Why not just the past simple?

 

[Skrej]

I used the present perfect simply because you asked for examples. There's absolutely no reason I couldn't have used simple past. Like I said, a contrived example isn't necessarily a good example of real usage.

I don't think there's much to add beyond what Swan offers. Such use is an exception, so there's no real 'rule', other than what's already been mentioned - brief news items. That's the context I used my mock examples.

Simple answer is to avoid using it if it confuses you. It's not going to make your own English any more authentic by struggling to master something that has limited applications, especially when it carries a strong potential for misuse.

Awareness of existence doesn't mandate mimicry. That way lies madness.