[Grammar] And and But at the Beginning of a Sentence

[Tuco]

I have just been over to Best way to teach expressions? I cannot see which unanswered question you are referring to. If you would like to re-pose it there, preferably starting with the words 'Unanswered Question', so that it is immediately identifiable, I will attempt to address it. I will then re-state, "Tuco, you have still presented no hard evidence that have got is 'incorrect grammar'".

This seems to be rehashing old news. It SEEMS like I've posted more than once since the post your are now answering. That wouldn't matter except that I felt the tide turn a bit to my liking, and I've been trying to be more cordial, though no less firm.

I could have posted my questions that went unanswered with a leading, "Unanswered Question" label, but I mistakenly said that I thought you had answered my issues, so I have restated my questions, one of them a third time I believe, without making a scene. You can simply answer them in the new post and we'll all be caught up.

As noted in the other thread, I believe I address the issue as to why I believe that "have got" is incorrect grammar. I could be wrong, but I gave it the old college try.

 

[Tuco]

Such is the nature of UE that your post has 'hung around' for rather more than eight hours, and will continue to do so. You now have the opportunity to re-post your deleted link. I now look forward to seeing, in the other thread if you wish, the question you want answered before you will address: "Tuco, you have still presented no hard evidence that have got is 'incorrect grammar'".

I made that comment after my link was deleted. I had no confidence that my comment would stick around. Since then, Tdol has allowed me to repost the link. Again, I have tried to explain why I feel that "have got" is improper grammar.

What is your question exactly, Tuco? It's already been addressed that (at least for now) starting a sentence with coordinating conjunctions is unacceptable, at least, not in formal writing. We've also touched upon the fact that, like it or not, this is widely accepted in English literature.
I feel that we use it this way in order to indicate a dramatic pause, or so that we read the conjunction more like an interjection to give the following statement some punch (or perhaps both). Is this what you're looking for?

SlickVic,
I don't want anything. What did I say?

 

[Tuco]

5jj, you get onto me about not answering your question while your answer is waiting for you. Then you get SlickVic wondering why I'm still on about this when I haven't said anything for a while. In fact, it was post 11 where I made my last point about this thread. Nobody says a thing about it. I have to think it is because, once again, I'm barking up the right tree.

It's a little disconcerting. I know you don't need me here. You all have shop all set up. I can leave you to it. I've made my point, and I've answered your questions. You don't need to answer mine. If you feel my answer was lame, then so be it. I'm fighting a losing battle, but I'm comfortable with my position.

I'm tired of fighting for a lost cause. Read through the posts. You'll see why I think you are trolling me. That's OK. It was fun...and I haven't printed my manuscript yet. I'll pull that gem from here.

 

[5jj]

I'm tired of fighting for a lost cause.

Well, as you say, it is a lost cause.

I had a look at Wheat from the Chaff. It seems to me that you are saying there that many many well-known writers have begun sentences with conjunctions and that the American Heritage Dictionary and many style guides (such as the Chicago Manual of Style and Fowler) and professors say that it is acceptable, but they are all wrong. You know that starting a sentence with a conjunction is wrong.

Fine. I'll leave you to your belief. I'm off to split an infinitive with a friend before lunch.

 

[emsr2d2]

Well, that was ten minutes of my life I'll never get back, reading three pages of this thread, wondering what other thread it refers to and still not being quite sure at the end of these three pages what the questions are! I'm fairly certain that none but the highest-level learners will have gained much from this thread other than the fact that, as we have seen many times before, native speakers regularly disagree on what is or is not acceptable/grammatical.

In the 2 minutes I have before I have to leave the house, I'm going to take a quick stab at what I think the thread is/was about:

1. "Have got" - When I was a child, the verb was "to have". In everyday speech, I have always used "have got" in the right context as have the majority of other English speakers I come into contact with. I always assumed it was an informal usage. Then I started teaching in Spain and discovered that "to have got" was the standard verb being taught to all primary school children and to many adults. My initial reaction was "That's disgraceful" but to be honest after a while I simply thought "Well, I've been saying "I've got a cat at home" etc for over 40 years, instead of "I have a cat at home" so what the hell? Why shouldn't they learn it?" I ensured that all my students learnt "to have" as well though.

2. Starting a sentence with "and" or "but". Again, when I was a child learning grammar at school (ah, those were the days!) and from my parents and language-obsessed grandfather, I was told "NEVER start a sentence with a conjunction". Then I grew up. I read. I read a lot. And I realised that that was nonsense. Plenty of people who write very well start a sentence with a conjunction. Did I recommend that my students do it? No, I didn't. But I told them that they'll see it everywhere.

Apologies if I haven't grasped the real issues in this thread but it's Sunday morning and I just thought I'd have a quick read through my unread threads. That was my two ha'pennies worth!

Enjoy your Sunday, everyone.

 

[5jj]

Well, that was ten minutes of my life I'll never get back

But would you have missed that splendid ten minutes?

 

[emsr2d2]

But would you have missed that splendid ten minutes?

Now I'll never know.

 

[Tdol]

I haven't printed my manuscript yet.

Do please post the link when you do- we're not trying to impose a single view of language here.

 

[Raymott]

In fact, it was post 11 where I made my last point about this thread. Nobody says a thing about it.

In fact, I was going to answer, but found the thread locked - not a rare phenomenon lately.

Grammar can refer to observations, but certainly you don't believe that grammar does not refer to prescription.

Grammar is in fact a normative or prescriptive set of rules setting for the current standard of usage for pedagogical or reference purposes.

It can be.

​

Many students are taught that certain conjunctions (such as "and", "but", and "so") should not begin sentences, although authorities such as the Chicago Manual of Style proclaim that this teaching has "no historical or grammatical foundation".[SUP][1][/SUP] (See Disputes in English grammar.)
Conjunction (grammar) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In linguistics, grammar is the set of structural rules that govern the composition of clauses, phrases, and words in any given natural language. ...
Every speaker of a language has, in his or her head, a set of rules[SUP][2][/SUP] for using that language. This is a grammar, and—at least in the case of one's native language—the vast majority of the information in it is acquired not by conscious study or instruction, but by observing other speakers; much of this work is done during infancy. ...The term "grammar" can also be used to describe the rules that govern the linguistic behaviour of a group of speakers. The term "English grammar", therefore, may have several meanings. ...
Grammar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In the grammar of current English, it's not incorrect to start a sentence with 'And' or 'But'.

PS: Note, I'm not relying on the authority of wikipedia for that opinion, just for the quotes which support the opinion.

 

[Tuco]

Do please post the link when you do- we're not trying to impose a single view of language here.

My manuscript is available at the link that I posted earlier. When I linked, I made it so you could choose exactly the subject you want. The "parent idea" is my manuscript. The "child ideas" are different positions I have found on the subject of beginning a sentence with a coordinating conjunction. To see anything in context, you would need to open the manuscript and do a CTRL+F and search for the text string.

 

[Tuco]

In fact, I was going to answer, but found the thread locked - not a rare phenomenon lately.

Many students are taught that certain conjunctions (such as "and", "but", and "so") should not begin sentences, although authorities such as the Chicago Manual of Style proclaim that this teaching has "no historical or grammatical foundation".[SUP][1][/SUP] (See Disputes in English grammar.)

Yea, I wrote them about that. It's in my manuscript. It was an epic failure on their part; furthermore, they disagree with the AP styleguide editor...also in the manuscript.

In linguistics, grammar is the set of structural rules that govern the composition of clauses, phrases, and words in any given natural language. ...
Every speaker of a language has, in his or her head, a set of rules[SUP][2][/SUP] for using that language. This is a grammar, and—at least in the case of one's native language—the vast majority of the information in it is acquired not by conscious study or instruction, but by observing other speakers; much of this work is done during infancy. ...

It's the Pimsler approach. We still teach grammar in school, and there is a reason for it. I know your point here. It's a different use of the word grammar. People use a certain "grammar" to communicate [STRIKE]regardless of the[/STRIKE] in part based on their environment, and it needn't follow prescriptive rules. I'm steadfast because I was...in my very first post, referring to a comment by abstractid. He asks a question as a learner of ESL and he never got his answer. I've looked him up on skype and we are talking. I'll give him the answer he wants.

I hope nobody goes on as though it has already been said. I know that Vic already said early on that it was improper grammar. If anyone has any question as to why I am writing about it, it is because I am answering posts. Just because I started the thread doesn't mean I need to go on about it. I'm simply answering other people's posts.

When it comes to learners of ESL, it is clear to me that they are asking, at least potentially, about rules. If they don't ask specifically, I think the teacher needs to be clear that they are or are not referring to prescription. Abstractid did not get the answer he was looking for. Nobody answered him correctly.

The term "grammar" can also be used to describe the rules that govern the linguistic behaviour of a group of speakers. The term "English grammar", therefore, may have several meanings. ...
Grammar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In the grammar of current English, it's not incorrect to start a sentence with 'And' or 'But'.

PS: Note, I'm not relying on the authority of wikipedia for that opinion, just for the quotes which support the opinion.

Yea, OK. They disagree with professors at Yale.

 

[Tuco]

Well, that was ten minutes of my life I'll never get back, reading three pages of this thread, wondering what other thread it refers to and still not being quite sure at the end of these three pages what the questions are!

To emsr2d2 and everyone who liked your post, the link you missed is on post number one of this thread.

Well, as you say, it is a lost cause.

I had a look at Wheat from the Chaff. It seems to me that you are saying there that many many well-known writers have begun sentences with conjunctions and that the American Heritage Dictionary and many style guides (such as the Chicago Manual of Style and Fowler) and professors say that it is acceptable, but they are all wrong. You know that starting a sentence with a conjunction is wrong.

Fine. I'll leave you to your belief. I'm off to split an infinitive with a friend before lunch.

I brought this up before, in this thread, but you missed that as well. It is also in the manuscript which you glanced at. Infinitives lend themselves to being split. I address your descriptive points. You never address my prescriptive points. I trust you are incapable, ill equipped, or simply being rude.

 

[Tuco]

No, it was a snarky gibe that I couldn't resist. Here's my real opinion:

Yes, it's grammatically incorrect, at least in writing, to begin a sentence with any kind of conjunction.

By the way, you can begin a sentence with a subordinating conjunction.