Charles the Simple vs Charles the Green-Eyed

[Alexey86]

Why is it that nicknames can be adjectives but not past participles?

For example, there are kings named Charles the Simple and Pepin the Short. But Charles the Green-Eyed just doesn't sound right and requires a noun after it.

 

[Tarheel]

Why is it that nicknames can be adjectives but not past participles?

I don't know what you mean by that. A nickname is another name for somebody.

For example, there are kings named Charles the Simple and Pepin the Short. But Charles the Green-Eyed just doesn't sound right and requires a noun after it.

I don't get it. What in the world would that noun be?

 

[jutfrank]

I don't really agree that Charles the Green-Eyed doesn't sound right and needs a noun after it.

And besides, plenty of adjectives are past participles. There are numerous examples on this list:

https://historipediaofficial.wikia.org/wiki/List_of_monarchs_by_nickname

 

[Alexey86]

I don't know what you mean by that. A nickname is another name for somebody.

Charles the Simple consists of the proper name Charles and the nickname the Simple (adjective).

I don't get it. What in the world would that noun be?

It can be anything depending on the context, for example Charles the Green-Eyed Devil.

 

[Alexey86]

I don't really agree that Charles the Green-Eyed doesn't sound right and needs a noun after it.

Do Charles the Green-Eyed and Charles the Green-Eyed Devil sound equally right to you?

 

[jutfrank]

I think so, yes. At least, there's nothing about the lack of following noun in the former case that seems off to me in any way.

I'm not sure I completely understand your question. Are you thinking that green-eyed works only as an attributive adjective or something? What does the fact that some adjectives are in past participle form have to do with anything? What do you make of all the other examples of nicknames with -ed endings?

 

[Alexey86]

Are you thinking that green-eyed works only as an attributive adjective or something?

Yes, I thought so. They sounded incomplete to me without a noun, but I was wrong.

What do you make of all the other examples of nicknames with -ed endings?

Thank you for the list! Now I see there actually are such nicknames.

 

[jutfrank]

Yes, I thought so. They sounded incomplete to me without a noun, but I was wrong.

Fair enough.

Out of interest, though—what if green-eyed were used as a predicate: The king is green-eyed. Does that also sound odd to you? If so, I think that might explain it.

For your information, it sounds okay to me, but, in the same way that it would be more natural to use a noun phrase (The king has green eyes) rather than an adjective phrase (The king is green-eyed) to describe physical characteristics, I think it would be more natural to use a noun phrase as part of the nickname, too. Charles Green Eyes seems to fit better than Charles the Green-Eyed. Think: Sveyn Forkbeard and Edward Longshanks, to name but two other such cases.

 

[Maybo]

Can I change "Charles the Green-Eyed" to "the Green-Eyed Charles"? I have seen a lot of names with that format. For example, Bobo the Samoyed. Is this format an emphasis for the name "Bobo"? Can I say "the Samoyed Bobo"?

 

[jutfrank]

Can I change "Charles the Green-Eyed" to "the Green-Eyed Charles"?

If you look at the list of monarchs, you'll see that all of the nicknames (I think) come after, not before.

I have seen a lot of names with that format. For example, Bobo the Samoyed. Is this format an emphasis for the name "Bobo"? Can I say "the Samoyed Bobo"?

I've no idea who that is but I don't think he/she is a king or queen, right? A Samoyed is a type of dog, isn't it? Therefore, it's a noun, not an adjective. Nouns come after the main name, not before.

 

[Alexey86]

Out of interest, though—what if green-eyed were used as a predicate: The king is green-eyed. Does that also sound odd to you? If so, I think that might explain it.

Yes, it sounds unusual. Has green eyes sounds nicer.

Charles Green Eyes seems to fit better than Charles the Green-Eyed.

Why is it Charles Green Eyes, not Charles the Green Eyes?

 

[GoesStation]

Why is it Charles Green Eyes, not Charles the Green Eyes?

Because Charles had green eyes and was thus green-eyed. He was not green eyes.

 

[jutfrank]

The article the is used to make noun phrases out of adjectives (the Simple) or before nouns to say what the person is (the Conqueror) but not to say what physical feature the person had (Green Eyes).

 

[Alexey86]

Because Charles had green eyes and was thus green-eyed. He was not green eyes.

Of course! It's just like Felix the Cat.

 

[Glizdka]

Not a teacher
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The article the is used to make noun phrases out of adjectives.

Do you approve of removing man from this proverb?

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In the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed [STRIKE]man[/STRIKE] is king.

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If you look at the list of monarchs, you'll see that all of the nicknames (I think) come after, not before.

"Green-eyed Charles" sounds too mundane for a noble ruler for my liking. "Charles the Green-Eyed" has that oomph behind it.

 

[jutfrank]

Do you approve of removing man from this proverb?

In the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed [STRIKE]man[/STRIKE] is king.

After one-eyed, certainly not. But that's not comparable. We're talking only about phrases used as nicknames here, where the custom is not to include the 'missing' word that the adjective describes.

The phrase the blind is another example where we don't include the 'missing' word. In this usage, it's a generic term for a group of people.

"Green-eyed Charles" sounds too mundane for a noble ruler for my liking.

Agreed. As does Impaling Vlad, Terrible Ivan, Unready Ethelred and Bald Charles.

 

[Alexey86]

Agreed. As does Impaling Vlad, Terrible Ivan, Unready Ethelred and Bald Charles.

It's interesting that Terrible Ivan becomes Ivan the Terrible, but Impaling Vlad becomes Vlad the Impaler. Would Vlad the Impaling be also possible?

 

[GoesStation]

Would Vlad the Impaling be also possible?

No. It doesn't tell us who's doing the impaling.

 

[GoesStation]

This is as good a place as any to remind folks that Charles the Bald was the patron of Wilfred the Hairy.

 

[jutfrank]

Would Vlad the Impaling be also possible?

No. The agentive sense (the sense that the nickname says what the person does) is typically expressed with the suffix -er, (or variant -or), and not -ing.

However, it's possible that an -ing suffix could be used with an adjective. I can imagine Charles the Bald being also the patron of Clovis the Slightly Receding. :-D