He shouted that I was supposed to have been there at eight o'clock'

[Adrianna95]

How would the meaning change if I said: 'He shouted that I was supposed to be there at eight o'clock' suggest that the person wasn't there at 8 o'clock?'

 

[emsr2d2]

What other meanings do you think it could have?

 

[Adrianna95]

Saying that I was supposed to be there at eight o'clock doesn't confirm that I was actually there. Am I right?

 

[Tarheel]

Saying that I was supposed to be there at eight o'clock doesn't confirm that I was actually there. Am I right?

No, it doesn't. In fact, the reason for saying that is to express disappointment that the person wasn't there when expected.

 

[emsr2d2]

It's the only explanation for someone shouting those words at you. Let's say you are scheduled to be somewhere at 8am:

You turn up at 7am. Your boss says "You're not supposed to be here until 8am".
You turn up at 8am. There is no reason for anyone to say or shout anything.
You turn up at 9am. Your boss shouts "You were supposed to be here at 8am!"

There is no instance in which the original words could possibly be used to someone who was there at 8am.

 

[Adrianna95]

Right. Does it suggest then that I can either say : 'You were supposed to be there at eight o'clock 'and'. You were supposed to have been there at eight o'clock', and the meaning will be the same? Will they both be expressing disappointment that the person wasn't there? Is it my choice which one to use?

 

[Adrianna95]

Can I give you another, similar example?

1. The next bus to arrive was mine.
2. The next bus to have arrived was mine.

Does the second sentence inform us that the bus actually didn't arrive and the first one that the bus did arrive?
What is the main difference in meaning between those two sentences?

I am still not sure if I understand this kind of sentences properly.

 

[Tarheel]

Right. Does it suggest then that I can either say : 'You were supposed to be there at eight o'clock OR 'You were supposed to have been there at eight o'clock', and the meaning will be the same? Will they both be expressing disappointment that the person wasn't there? Is it my choice which one to use?

Offhand I would say the second one wouldn't be a natural choice.

 

[Tarheel]

Can I give you another, similar example?

1. The next bus to arrive was mine.
2. The next bus to have arrived was mine.

Does the second sentence inform us that the bus actually didn't arrive and the first one that the bus did arrive?
What is the main difference in meaning between those two sentences?

I am still not sure if I understand these kinds of sentences properly.

1. Yes. That bus definitely showed up.
2. I can't imagine using that sentence, but I guess you mean to say your bus didn't show up.

 

[Skrej]

There is no instance in which the original words could possibly be used to someone who was there at 8am.

I'm going to play devil's advocate and propose a very narrow and unlikely context where it might. However, I do agree with ems. I just can't resist a "no instance" challenge with language.

You turned up at 8:00. You're angry about it because once you showed up, there wasn't anything to do for whatever reason and you wasted your time. You angrily ask your boss "Why the heck did I show up at 8:00 then?"

Your boss shouts back "You were supposed to be here at 8am!" (i.e. "because I told you so")

Not very likely or natural, and also requires a shift in emphasis, but it does allow for the original words to still be said if someone did show at 8:00.

 

[emsr2d2]

Right. Does it suggest then that I can either say: 'You were supposed to be there at eight o'clock' 'and'. and 'You were supposed to have been there at eight o'clock', and the meaning will be the same? Will they both be expressing Do they both express disappointment that the person wasn't there? Is it my choice which one to use?

Whilst not grammatically incorrect, I don't like "You were supposed to have been here ..." in that context. The natural choices are "You were supposed to be here at ..." and "You should have been here at ...".