I would have liked to hear/to have heard more

[Manitia]

Perfect infinitive with imaginary-past structure

Hi, which is correct English? If both, is there a difference in meaning?

1. "I would have liked to have heard more."
2. "I would have liked to hear more."

 

[Piscean]

1. "I would have liked (in the past) to have heard more {in an earlier past)."
2. "I would have liked (in the past) to hear more (at that past time)."
3. "I would like (now) to have heard more (in the past)."

 

[Tarheel]

Are you talking about a speech somebody gave? Or something else?

 

[Manitia]

1. "I would have liked (in the past) to have heard more {in an earlier past)."
2. "I would have liked (in the past) to hear more (at that past time)."
3. "I would like (now) to have heard more (in the past)."

Ok, so I will assume both are correct and they have very different meanings.

 

[Tarheel]

Abe: It was a good speech.
Bob: Yes, it was.
Abe: It was too short. I would have liked to have heard more.

@Manitia Is this the kind of thing you have in mind?

 

[Piscean]

Abe: It was a good speech.
Bob: Yes, it was.
Abe: It was too short. I would have liked to have heard more.

While many native speakers produce sentences like this, they are technically incorrect. As you see in post #2, that means

1. "I would have liked (in the past) to have heard more (in an earlier past)." The speaker has conflated the forms in my second and third sentences.

 

[Holmes]

While many native speakers produce sentences like this, they are technically incorrect. As you see in post #2, that means

1. "I would have liked (in the past) to have heard more {in an earlier past)." The speaker hdas conflate the forms in my second and third sentences.

Here's a famous example: "I would have liked to have known you, but I was just a kid" (Sir Elton John, "Candle in the Wind").

I believe H. W. Fowler observed that people use the perfect infinitive in that construction to signal that the thing never happened.

 

[jutfrank]

While many native speakers produce sentences like this, they are technically incorrect.

A plainly (if not uncharacteristically) prescriptive attitude, which I tend to share. Countless millions of native speakers can be wrong!

 

[emsr2d2]

Here's a famous example: "I would have liked to have known you, but I was just a kid" (Sir Elton John, "Candle in the Wind").

That would have been a great example but the lyrics are "I would have liked to know you, ...". I've been singing along with that for decades but, just to be sure, I checked six separate song lyrics sites. HERE's just one of them.

 

[Piscean]

A plainly (if not uncharacteristically) prescriptive attitude, which I tend to share.

I said 'technically incorrect' and explained why. There are probably some teachers and examiners who would penalise this (( wouldn't); learners need to be aware of this.

Countless millions of native speakers can be wrong!

If there really are countless millions of people who commit this sin, then it's probably no longer a sin. Michael Swan (2016 §90.2) says 'it is sometimes used in informal speech'.

 

[Holmes]

That would have been a great example but the lyrics are "I would have liked to know you, ...". I've been singing along with that for decades but, just to be sure, I checked six separate song lyrics sites. HERE's just one of them.

Lyrics sites are one thing. How he actually sings the song is another.

Listen to any recording from any decade. I can't find a single one where he doesn't sing "would have liked to have known you."

The "n" on the end of "known" is unmistakable. Naturally, he contracts the "have"s: "would've liked to've known you."

The "have"s actually have the sound of schwa. It could be argued that he says "of": "would of liked to of known you."

This video is grammatically amusing. Ignoring the second contracted "have," it prints "would have liked to known you."

 

[jutfrank]

That would have been a great example but the lyrics are "I would have liked to know you, ...".

Interesting. The original album version does sound rather like know but in every live version I've heard it sounds to me more like 'have known', with a faint /n/ sound between know and you.

Do you still hear know here?:

 

[jutfrank]

I said 'technically incorrect' and explained why. There are probably some teachers and examiners who would penalise this (I wouldn't)

Would you teach it?

 

[Piscean]

I have made learners aware that they may well hear it and even see it, but recommended that they not use it.

 

[Holmes]

Do you still hear know here?:

I still hear known. Elton John's own website doesn't seem to have a lyrics section. The most official online lyrics set seems to be at this site, which has "would have liked to have known you." The only way to be sure would probably be to invest in the book Elton John and Bernie Taupin: The Complete Lyrics. Incidentally, the version for Princess Diana lacks the relevant line.

Rolling Stone Magazine ranks "Candle in the Wind" at 347 on its list of the 500 greatest songs of all time. If millions of listeners fail to be bothered by the construction, that is probably a sign that the error is not a very bad one. Interestingly, however, the correlate with enjoy would indeed seem to carry the wrong meaning: I would have enjoyed having known you.

 

[jutfrank]

I hear known every time. I think the only way to be sure is to ask Elton himself. I'll do that next time he's round for tea.