let's not cry over spilled guineas

Status
Not open for further replies.

Mike Hussey

Member
Joined
May 12, 2020
Member Type
Student or Learner
Native Language
Spanish
Home Country
Spain
Current Location
Spain
Frank is mobster from Providence:

Frank: As for our problem with Providence...let's not cry over spilled guineas.

What does "spilled guineas" mean?
Source: The Departed is a 2006 American crime film directed by Martin Scorsese and written by William Monahan.
 

Skrej

VIP Member
Joined
May 11, 2015
Member Type
English Teacher
Native Language
English
Home Country
United States
Current Location
United States
It's a combination of a mixed metaphor (or idiom, actually) and a racial slur.

The normal idiom is 'don't cry over spilled milk', meaning not to worry about something that has already happened. 'Guinea' in this context is a rather derogatory racial slur for someone of Italian descent. Frank is with the Irish mob, so the 'guineas' in question would of course be the Italian mob.

It's been a while since I've seen the movie (and it was a good one!), but as I recall, Leonardo DiCaprio's character (who was trying to infiltrate the Irish Mob) beats up or maybe kills some Italian mobsters from Providence. Later the Irish Mob boss played by Nicholson makes this comment regarding the problems that incident has caused between the Irish and Italian mafias.
 

Mike Hussey

Member
Joined
May 12, 2020
Member Type
Student or Learner
Native Language
Spanish
Home Country
Spain
Current Location
Spain
Does it mean Guinea occupied Providence & also out of the hands?
 

GoesStation

No Longer With Us (RIP)
Joined
Dec 22, 2015
Member Type
Interested in Language
Native Language
American English
Home Country
United States
Current Location
United States
Does it mean Guinea occupied Providence & also out of the hands?
Can you express the idea in different words? I can't guess what you're trying to say here.
 

Charlie Bernstein

VIP Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2009
Member Type
Other
Native Language
English
Home Country
United States
Current Location
United States
Does it mean Guinea occupied Providence & also out of the hands?
No.

A lot of Italians and Italian-Americans live in and around the city of Providence. A Providence neighborhood called Federal Hill is a long-time center of organized crime in New England, the six northeastern states.

I don't know what "out of the hands" means.
 
Last edited:

Mike Hussey

Member
Joined
May 12, 2020
Member Type
Student or Learner
Native Language
Spanish
Home Country
Spain
Current Location
Spain
No.

A lot of Italians and Italian-Americans live in and around the city of Providence. A Providence neighborhood called Federal Hill is a long-time center of organized crime in New England, the six northeastern states.

I don't know what "out of the hands" means.

Means too late to take back control of Providence from Guinea.
 

Charlie Bernstein

VIP Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2009
Member Type
Other
Native Language
English
Home Country
United States
Current Location
United States
Means too late to take back control of Providence from Guinea.
No. Good try, but it really does not mean that.

1. The phrase out of the hands is meaningless. You might mean out of his hands or out of their hands.

2. You're still not understanding guinea, with a small g. Guinea with a capital G is a part of Africa. With a small g, it can be a British monetary value. As it's used in the movie, it's a rude word for an Italian or Italian American. So Guinea cannot control Providence. That would make no sense.
 

Tdol

No Longer With Us (RIP)
Staff member
Joined
Nov 13, 2002
Native Language
British English
Home Country
UK
Current Location
Japan
Out of curiosity, why does it have this meaning in US slang?
 

GoesStation

No Longer With Us (RIP)
Joined
Dec 22, 2015
Member Type
Interested in Language
Native Language
American English
Home Country
United States
Current Location
United States
Out of curiosity, why does it have this meaning in US slang?
According to this site: As a derogatory term for "an Italian" (1896) it is from Guinea Negro (1740s) "black person, person of mixed ancestry;" applied to Italians probably because of their dark complexions relative to northern Europeans …. This reaffirms what I had thought: we Americans got the term from British English. I'm guessing it was still current in Britain in the late nineteenth century when huge waves of Italian immigrants started to arrive in the United States. Each immigrant group quickly acquires a pejorative term, and Guinea was ready-made. It fell out of use for lack of applicability in British English, but stuck with us over here.

I don't imagine it's used much anymore even in American cities with large Italian communities. Our xenophobes have newer, less assimilated immigrant communities against which to direct their fears and prejudices.
 

probus

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Jan 7, 2011
Member Type
Retired English Teacher
Native Language
English
Home Country
Canada
Current Location
Canada
On ethnic slurs, I think guinea has fallen out of use. People here who use such nasty words use wop instead. And we have a great many people of Italian ancestry where I live. Pretty well only they use wop, in the same way that only black Americans can get away with using the n-word.

All such words are of course extremely insulting and totally unacceptable. Also, guinea may be a regionalism rather than dated. GoesStation or Charlie Bernstein may know.
 

SoothingDave

VIP Member
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
Member Type
Interested in Language
Native Language
American English
Home Country
United States
Current Location
United States
I heard "dago" when I was little. Proabably varies with location and time. "Guinea" sounds like a mob or northeast thing.
 

GoesStation

No Longer With Us (RIP)
Joined
Dec 22, 2015
Member Type
Interested in Language
Native Language
American English
Home Country
United States
Current Location
United States
All such words are of course extremely insulting and totally unacceptable. Also, guinea may be a regionalism rather than dated. GoesStation or Charlie Bernstein may know.
It sounds like something from The Godfather to me. The only place I've lived with a large Italian immigrant community was Toronto. I never heard any ethnic slurs directed against any of them when I lived there.

One side of my wife's family is of Italian origin. Some of her recent ancestors grew up in pretty rough circumstances in northeastern Ohio, where they were part of a significant minority group. They probably heard guinea and wop all too often.
 

Skrej

VIP Member
Joined
May 11, 2015
Member Type
English Teacher
Native Language
English
Home Country
United States
Current Location
United States
'Guinea' comes up a few times in The Sopranos, so I'd lean towards regionalism. Here's a clip (potentially offensive language warning) of Christopher referring to himself as a "skinny guinea'. The other scene I won't post a clip because it involves some minor nudity, but Christopher is having an affair with his cousin's girlfriend who happens to be Jewish. She asks him if he's ever "been with a member of the tribe", and he asks her if she's ever "shagged a skinny guinea".


Regarding 'wop' - I had no idea this was racial slur until I was well into adulthood. One of my mother's staples for a simple, cheap dish that would stretch far and feed many was something we called 'wop dish'. I had never heard the term used outside of that dish. In retrospect, since the dish does contain noodles and tomato sauce, it does seem like a deliberate use of the slur, but nobody in our family knew what the word meant until I shared the meaning of it during a holiday gathering. My aunts and cousins were oblivious to the meaning as well. An uncle by marriage had heard the term, but until then hadn't made the connection between the slur and the dish his wife had been making for thirty some years.

My mother was mortified to discover it was racial slur. To her, it was just another name for a dish, just like 'goulash' was a name for a dish with pasta in it. Both her and my aunts were convinced their mother (from whom they got the recipe) didn't know about it either. Nobody was sure if it was an original recipe of my grandmother's or a collected recipe, but somewhere somebody apparently knew the term to apply it for the dish.

I tend to think it was named elsewhere, just because Italian heritage was virtually non-existent in our part of the US. Everyone was pretty much of German or Scandinavian descent, and to a smaller percentage English and Irish, so pejoratives towards Italians weren't part of the lexicon. Not necessarily out of any moral or ethical righteousness, but the absence of opportunity.

As a kid I loved it, because it had sliced up hot dogs in it. I haven't had it in many years, but I might have to get the recipe from Mom and make it again. Granted, it should probably be renamed, but to be honest, even knowing the true meaning of 'wop', it would be hard to refer to it as anything other than 'wop dish' at this point, after having heard it as such for the first 25 or so years of my life.
 

jutfrank

VIP Member
Joined
Mar 5, 2014
Member Type
English Teacher
Native Language
English
Home Country
England
Current Location
England
Guinea" sounds like a mob or northeast thing.

As a non-American avid watcher of US crime drama, that's how it sounds to me, too. I imagine the use might say more about the kind of person who uses it than the region they're from. I've only ever heard this word being spoken of about Italian mobsters. Mind you, a lot of these dramas are set in the North-East.

In The Departed, Frank Costello is an Irish-American gangster from the Boston area. He takes great delight in calling his Italian rivals 'guineas'. I don't think he cares much whether they find the word 'acceptable'. It's used precisely because it's derogatory.
 

Charlie Bernstein

VIP Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2009
Member Type
Other
Native Language
English
Home Country
United States
Current Location
United States
. . . I don't imagine it's used much anymore even in American cities with large Italian communities. . . .
Actually, it's alive and well.

Thanks for looking up the derivation. I was wondering about that myself.
 

Tdol

No Longer With Us (RIP)
Staff member
Joined
Nov 13, 2002
Native Language
British English
Home Country
UK
Current Location
Japan
It fell out of use for lack of applicability in British English, but stuck with us over here.

We have had substantial Italian communities in the UK for ages, and have used a couple of insulting terms, just not that one to my knowledge.
 

Charlie Bernstein

VIP Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2009
Member Type
Other
Native Language
English
Home Country
United States
Current Location
United States
I heard "dago" when I was little. Proabably varies with location and time. "Guinea" sounds like a mob or northeast thing.
In the northeast, it's dago, guinea, or wop. And when I lived in Providence, I often heard guido, like Father Guido Sarducci on Saturday Night Live. And clothes and accessories (like gold chains) that looked Italian-American were called guidy, pronounced gweedy.

Why am I getting into this? Ugh.
 

jutfrank

VIP Member
Joined
Mar 5, 2014
Member Type
English Teacher
Native Language
English
Home Country
England
Current Location
England
In the introductory monologue of the film, Costello is explaining the background of the Boston crime scene:

The Knights of Columbus were real headbreakers—true guineas. They took over their piece of the city.

I think this might say quite a lot about what he means by 'guineas'.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top