[Grammar] present perfect/past simple

[5jj]

As I've suggested, I think that some British teachers are a little precious about the present perfect, and that the past simple may be acceptable in more contexts than some of us accept.

However:

2006: The process of learning a language seems to be very similar to that of acquiring other skills, trades, etc. One starts with learning simple basic things
5: That is debatable. I agree with the simple (as opposed to complex), but what is basic in language? Even BE, which is generally introduced at a very early stage, is not basic if the learner's language does not have an equivalent.

2006: I am saying that it [the present perfect] can't be effectively taught without students having a good understanding of simple past tense first.
5: I disagree. In the way in which I and many of my colleagues introduced English, learners frequently encountered the present perfect before the past simple. In my experience, they had no more difficulties (and probably fewer) than those who dealt with the past simple first.

2006: But a student cannot learn the more complicated tenses well if (s)he is not first reasonably grounded in the basic tenses.
5: This appears to suggest that the present perfect is 'more complicated' a tense than the past simple. I don't believe it is.

It may initially cause some difficulties for a speaker of a language such as French, in which the tense formed with the equivalent of HAVE is clearly a past tense form. However, in itself, the ways in which the present perfect are used are no more difficult than the ways in which the past simple is used.

It is the over-insistence of so many people that we use a past tense for a past time that has caused at least some problems for students. Many tense/aspect forms in English can be used to talk about a past-time action, and the past tense can be used to talk about present, general and future actions.

2006: And if the student is repeatedly told that "Only present perfect is correct here.'' when that in fact is not true, sentence like ''I have been born in Delhi.'' will inevitably be the result
5: Bhaisahab has already pointed out that other reasons are more likely to lead to this error.

 

[2006]

I largely disagree with what you say. But I am sick and tired of talking about present perfect tense.
I am out of here!!

(final post on UsingEnglish)

 

[Cargill]

(final post on UsingEnglish)

Thank you, 5jj! :cheers:

I am sick and tired of talking about present perfect tense.

Nobody pleaded with you to share your drivel.

 

[5jj]

I have not always been impressed with 2006's arguments myself, but I think we should try to keep invective out of the forum. 2006 may well think that some of what I write is drivel, but he has refrained from saying this in his posts.

We may not always agree with what others believe, but they have a right to express their opinions, so long as they do so, as 2006 does, in a reasonably civilised way.

 

[Raymott]

I largely disagree with what you say. But I am sick and tired of talking about present perfect tense.
I am out of here!!

(final post on UsingEnglish)

You don't need to leave the group simply to avoid talking about the present perfect tense! Last I heard, it was permissible to pass over certain threads if you think they're going to press buttons.

 

[Khosro]

You don't need to leave the group simply to avoid talking about the present perfect tense! Last I heard, it was permissible to pass over certain threads if you think they're going to press buttons.

it is still permissible.

 

[Will17]

What a pity!

I feel sorry.:-(

 

[bhaisahab]

What a pity!

I feel sorry.:-(

It's not your fault, Will, some people get hot under the collar about certain aspects of language.

 

[bhaisahab]

This morning I received a PM from 2006 asking me to pass on his/her thoughts on leaving Using English, I thought it best to copy the message here.
I had to leave the forums. If I had stayed and just ignored future discussions of simple past and present perfect tenses that said things I feel are incorrect, my silence could be taken as tacit agreement with what was said.

A 'teacher' of English not only has to state what
(s)he thinks is correct English, but also has to speak up against statements about the English language that (s)he thinks are false.

Thanks,
2006

 

[5jj]

I received, this morning, a PM from 2006 asking me to pass on his/her thoughts on leaving Using English, I thought it best to copy the message here.
I had to leave the forums. If I had stayed and just ignored future discussions of simple past and present perfect tenses that said things I feel are incorrect, my silence could be taken as tacit agreement with what was said.

A 'teacher' of English not only has to state what (s)he thinks is correct English, but also has to speak up against statements about the English language that (s)he thinks are false.

Thanks,
2006

I understand 2006's thoughts - I sometimes feel that I prolong threads tediously because I do not wish my silence to be taken as tacit acceptance. However, I have occasionally learnt to live with an "I don't agree, but we'll have to agree to differ - I am leaving this thread". (Unfortunately, I don't always stick to that, :-().

I do not agree with much of what 2006 writes, and we have crossed swords on several occasions, but I think that the forum will be a poorer place without him. At the very least he forces those who disagree with him to examine their/our own ideas more carefully; he also draws attention to sloppy thinking and unjustified assumptions. I hope he reconsiders his decision.

 

[Will17]

I hope he reconsiders his decision.

So do I.

Sigh

 

[Tdol]

I a very sorry that 2006 has decided to go, and also hope that he or she reconsiders. It's always sad when things like this happen; it leaves the forum a poorer place, with fewer ideas and opinions. Please try to avoid such situations.

I have removed the troll.

 

[Mylo]

Given 2006's long-standing membership in the Usingenglish forums, (s)he did not choose a very elegant way to say goodbye to those who ensured for him/her her conversational needs. Not to mention those who relied on his/her helpful advice. I am sure (s)he disappointed a lot of people with his/her childish reaction.

 

[5jj]

Given 2006's long-standing membership in the Usingenglish forums, (s)he did not choose a very elegant way to say goodbye to those who ensured for him/her her conversational needs. Not to mention those who relied on his/her helpful advice.

Some of us have been hammering 2006 a bit!

One of the problems with these longer threads (21 posts before 2006 left) is that if someone stubbornly and wrongly (in our opinion) continues with their delusions (as we see it), we sometimes find it difficult to leave the last word with the other member. Finally there comes a time when we are tempted to think, "Oh, what's the point - they'll never see sense. I'm giving up this thankless task."

It's regrettable when that happens, but, even if I don't agree with 2006's views on some language points, I do sympathise with his frustration. I have been close to that point myself on occasion.

 

[Mylo]

"Oh, what's the point - they'll never see sense. I'm giving up this thankless task."

Think of the more than many non-member visitors who read your posts with bated breath. I am sure they are not "thankless". It is just that you do not hear them.