[Grammar] that that help? - He said that that ‘that’ that that man used was wrong.

[HeartShape]

Hi,

I have this litte tongue twister. Can someone confirm if I am correct?

Sentence: He said that that ‘that’ that that man used was wrong.

Break down of the "that" words:

Sentence: He said that that ‘that’ that that man used was wrong.

1. Introduce the "that" clause.
2. Act as an adjective to "that".
3. Introduce second "that" clause.
4. Act as an adjective to describe that man was wrong.
5. ‘that’ act as noun.

Sentence contains two "that" clauses, two "that" adjectives, and a "that" in quotes acting as noun.

And Happy New Year by the way! :-D

 

[Phaedrus]

Can someone confirm if I am correct?

I'd say you've parsed it accurately enough, though I'd prefer to call the second and fifth thats determiners rather than adjectives.

In keeping with that point, I think the second that would need special emphasis (indicating pointing). Otherwise the would be used.

He said that that ‘that’ that that man used was wrong.

Happy New Year!

 

[HeartShape]

I'd say you've parsed it accurately enough, though I'd prefer to call the second and fifth thats determiners rather than adjectives.

In keeping with that point, I think the second that would need special emphasis (indicating pointing). Otherwise the would be used.

He said that that ‘that’ that that man used was wrong.

Happy New Year!

Hi,

Thanks. Yes, technically they are determiners but I thought I would put them down as adjectives.

 

[jutfrank]

technically they are determiners but I thought I would put them down as adjectives.

It's probably best if you don't do that in future.

 

[HeartShape]

It's probably best if you don't do that in future.

After giving it some thought, I think there are supportive arguments for both answers. Example, if you ask the question which man, you get "that man" which describes and identify the man.

I chose adjective because traditional grammar books class determiners under the same catergory as adjectives to simplify the parsing, hence my answer.
Since both determiners and adjectives occupy the same space (attributive position), and function to modify the noun it’s a reasonable to give this answer. It’s not technically accurate but accurate enough I think. The fact that I have managed to parse this sentence it means that what I have studied works amazingly well.

 

[PaulMatthews]

After giving it some thought, I think there are supportive arguments for both answers. Example, if you ask the question which man, you get "that man" which describes and identify the man.

Modern grammar treats "this" and "that" as determinatives, which typically function as determiners in noun phrases. They have distinctive properties quite unlike those of adjectives, and hence are best allocated to a separate word category (part of speech).

I chose adjective because traditional grammar books class determiners under the same category as adjectives to simplify the parsing, hence my answer.

That's not the reason. They classed most determinatives as adjectives because they failed to take account of the different ways that adjectives and determinatives behave. Determinative is now a distinct word category (part of speech), just as noun, adjective, adverb etc. are.

Since both determiners and adjectives occupy the same space (attributive position), and function to modify the noun it’s a reasonable to give this answer. It’s not technically accurate but accurate enough I think. The fact that I have managed to parse this sentence it means that what I have studied works amazingly well.

There's no reason not to be accurate, as you put it. If expert grammarians call such items 'determiners', that should be good enough for you as a learner.

Incidentally, the "that" which introduces declarative content clauses belongs to the word category (part of speech) 'subordinator'.

 

[HeartShape]

If you are happy with the terminology used six or seven decades ago, then continue to label 'that' an adjective.

According to Quirk et al, the demonstratives adjectives have been subsumed to demonstrative determiners.

Oh well. I just have to make a memory note of that then.